How old is a tree?

Will_Heath

Using that logic then we would start aging the tree when the seed originally formed.

For all intents and purposes, a trees age begins at the time it starts to grow. I have a few oaks that were started as acorns 5 years ago therefore they are five years old.

I successfully air layered a maple last year off a tree that I estimate to be 60 years old. When I made the cut below the new roots of the air layer I counted 6 rings, so being that I live in Michigan, I estimate the cutting to be 6 years old when took and now 7 years old, not 61 years old.

None of these are yet being trained as bonsai. Once they hit a pot, then I'll have another, completly unrelated age attached to them. "Trained as bonsai for X years.

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HB Smith

Will, that's my whole point. We are overcomplicating this, in spite of what Treebay's mother says.

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Sincerely,
Howard

www.BonsaiSmiths.net

Forest Reef

Something to think about....I am told a Hawthorn (Crataegus sp.) grown from seed takes about 20yr to flower, but a cutting from 20+yr old tree will bloom soon after it 'takes' (give it a year or so to set roots). So - the cutting gets *something* from the age of the parent plant. How old is it really? It's a cutting taken 'x' years ago from a tree 'y' (or at least 'z') years old (more or less).... What counts is the result, in the case of a Hawthorn, do I or do I not have to wait 20yr to see flowers? Or fruit on a crabapple? Etc.

Has anyone experienced this? What about airlayers off 'rough bark' pines - or 'rough bark' decidous cuttings or airlayers, for that matter?

I've got one of each on the hawthorns - a seedling I got a year or so ago, and a recently acquired 'older tree' cutting grown a couple yrs and reputed to bloom 'soon'. I'll let everyone know....but at least one of 'em may take 18yr or so to get a reply back on ....hence, the recent 2nd acquisition (from Evergreengardenworks, a trustworthy bonsai source). Disclaimer: my only relation to Evergreengardenworks is that of a satisfied customer.

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Anita

Nature, time, and patience are the three great physicians.

rockm

Reef hits my point. This is more than "it's as old as the tree it's taken from." It's more complicated and intriguing--if you're willing to think about it. Although it's alot like splitting hairs, I was trying to show that this is a very relative thing that can't really be nailed down.

A cutting doesn't "become" a tree the minute it can survive on its own roots. Age, or at least maturity (and one ususaly goes with the other) are conveyed in that cutting--and it's not the same as an egg. An egg has a separate set of genes that need another set to complete it. A cutting has all it needs without fertilization--it is already "complete." It is, in fact part of the tree you took it from, only it doesn't have roots. It will not become any different even when it pushes roots. It's a clone of the "mother" plant.

The example of the hawthorn is but one that shows age or at least maturity is passed on in cuttings. There are many others. A cutting struck from a two year old wisteria won't flower for years, until it, and it's "mother" plant reaches maturity. A cutting from a twenty year old wisteria vine is capable of flowering immediately. With that in mind, what is conveyed between the "mother" plant and the cutting? The cutting is the same plant as the "mother." Would you or I call the cutting an "old" plant, probably not, but that's an extremely simplified way of putting it.

How old would you say an air layer (simply a large cutting) is from a 200 year old tree? Many of the branches on the tree are probably not as old as the trunk, as some could have sprouted long after the trunk was several decades old. They will not have as many annual growth rings as the trunk, but does that make them younger than whole tree--or can the entire organism be used as the age reference? If the branch you air layer has only been on the tree for 70 years, is it as old as the "mother" tree? Can you say a bonsai developed from a 70 year-old branch on a 200 year old tree is 200 years old?

Yeah, this is a little like counting angels on a pinhead, but worth noting that the "age" thing is a human construct that doesn't translate well to trees sometimes.

imyerhukleberry

Wow! You guys are trippin me out!

okay, we have a 200 year old cutting. We plant it. It grows roots. It then becomes a 200 year old cutting with new roots. One age can not be tagged to this. It is a new tree wich was created from a 200 year old cutting.

Think of this....a 30 year old organ donor dies in a car crash, her heart is flown to a 6 year old in need of a one...

I get a new hair-cut...how old is my hair?

John Dixon

[QUOTE=rockm]Reef hits my point. This is more than "it's as old as the tree it's taken from." It's more complicated and intriguing--if you're willing to think about it. Although it's alot like splitting hairs, I was trying to show that this is a very relative thing that can't really be nailed down.

A cutting doesn't "become" a tree the minute it can survive on its own roots. Age, or at least maturity (and one ususaly goes with the other) are conveyed in that cutting--and it's not the same as an egg.


Rockm,

This is a subject that we will never agree on. Stated simply, I don't consider a bonsai a true "separate entity" until it can survive on its own without a parent plant. That is why I believe a cutting becomes a tree when it is surviving off its own roots. Cuttings and air-layering have distinct differences, in my opinion, and I don't consider them synonymous. Willow cuttings may be as thick as your arm, but they are still completely removed from the parent plant. An air-layer is not. Big difference.

The point raised about hawthorn has merit, but let's look at the other end of the spectrum. If the species has say a fifty years life span (on average) and you take a cutting off a twenty year old specimen, does that mean it will only live thirty or so more years? Probably identifies a better answer to our question than discussing when its age starts. Of course, we all know that bonsai techniques can greatly increase the "standard" life expectancy of material as opposed to its natural growth habit (or lessen it if you don't do it well ).

The "egg" remark is interesting, but without fertilization, is it truly started? Too deep a subject for me. I will say that as human beings go, I figure the baby has a birthdate for a reason, and the prior nine months are not included because the fetus is still part of the mother's body (please don't consider that a political statement about abortion rights).

I guess that when asked about the actual "age" of a bonsai, the true answer has to include ALL information about whether from seed, cutting, air-layer, age of parent plant, years in training. etc., but the person asking the question may either be asleep or have lost all interest by the time the full answer is completed.

How old it looks is what matters.

While I didn't agree with all of your remarks, I did enjoy reading your post, and can see you do care about bonsai.

Best regards,

John

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John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

rockm

Well, there you guys go again anthropomorphizing trees

John, an air layer is only a big cutting. It's the same principle, especially if you're doing hard tissue cuttings. The bark on hardwood cuttings serves the same purpose as the "bridge" on an air layer. In many species, the "bridge" on an air layer between the main tree and the branch isn't needed. The 'bridge is needed really only because an air layer has more growth to support than a cutting, not because the cutting is a different kind of operation. the larger the cutting, the more resources it needs mto push new roots.

"If the species has say a fifty years life span (on average) and you take a cutting off a twenty year old specimen, does that mean it will only live thirty or so more years"

No. I've heard that the decline and death of a tree usually has to do with the plant reaching its physical limits in being able to sustain new growth at the end of elongating branches and roots. We short circuit that in bonsai by limiting height and root run.

Huckle, that liver is as old as the donor, not the recipient. Putting the organ in a younger person doesn't make it any younger. It brings old scars and limitations along with it.

Forest Reef

To quote Colin Lewis: "It is how old a bonsai looks that is more important than old it actually is." Here's an interesting link to his BTI article that discusses how aging in trees is different from aging in animals (including people). We're getting hung up on something that just doesn't much matter to the tree - Tree does not care how old we call it. Read & enjoy...and follow the ref. all the way back to Harvard research, if you want. http://www.btinternet.com/~colinlew...ding/Aging.html

Regardless of what age you call it - understanding how trees age differently from people will help you train your bonsai. How not to stimulate that juvenile juniper foliage....Absolutely will not get wysteria flowers from a 2yr old seedling. Etc.

__________________
Anita

Nature, time, and patience are the three great physicians.

John Dixon

[QUOTE=rockm]Well, there you guys go again anthropomorphizing trees

John, an air layer is only a big cutting. It's the same principle, especially if you're doing hard tissue cuttings. The bark on hardwood cuttings serves the same purpose as the "bridge" on an air layer. In many species, the "bridge" on an air layer between the main tree and the branch isn't needed.

rockm,

Nice try, but I ain't buyin' it. I'll give you a distinct difference, and if you can explain it away, I'll bow down to you as the winner of our debate. An air-layer has the support of the heartwood WHILE it is encapsulated in sphagnum moss and wrap growing a new root system, correct? What supports a cutting (whether it be placed in soil or just water)? Once the air-layer roots, a separate act of severing it from the parent plant takes place AFTER this occurs. A cutting STARTS with this action. That is a very distinct difference, in my opinion, and precludes me from seeing the two techniques as really similar. Show a consistency to the contrary, and I surrender.

Once again I, and several others, have said that the appearance of age is the most important factor. And I bet you agree too.

Take care,

John

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John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.