How To Balance Ability... Material… Cost

Jay

So, I have been digesting much information. The knowledge shared by others is helping me in my Bonsai Education. I am now looking a dilemma straight in the face. I am now armed with the knowledge that when I obtain new stock, it should be as close to perfect as I can find. I should look for something with excellent roots, nebari and tapered trunk, with proper branch size and placement. All of these should also be complimentary to each other.

I hope to be able to go to a nursery and look with a critical eye. My mind set to find that one or more trees that fit the profile I am seeking. The dilemma comes in with the price. It is safe to say that all things being equal, the better tree will carry a higher price. (Now I’m realizing why some are more expensive than others!!!) My ability level is still far from expert; do I spend the big bucks and get that real good tree? Do I go against what I know is right and take an inferior one? Where do I compromise?

I know, I can go for a better tree in a less developed state and save some cash. But, I would like to have something that will look good… real good, in a few years. Perhaps there are different species I should think about. Perhaps I should compromise or perhaps I have learned a lesson that you cannot go back from… Time will tell.

What’s your take?

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

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David Chauvin

Jay,

I am at a similar stage. I try to buy the best of a species that I can afford to develop into a "specimen", but at the same time, buy lesser material of the same species to learn the growth habits, styling techniques and species characteristics like bendability of branches. For instance, I have several small black pines that if lost, would not be too great a tragedy. On these I feel free to be aggressive. Mistakes have been made that will probably prevent a couple of these from being keepers, but at ten bucks a piece, it doesn't keep me up at night. I also have one really nice black pine that I am very conservative with. I'm taking it very slowly and trying to make the best long term decisions without any regard for when this one "arrives".

David

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"With the death of the Shamen, artists are the last interpreters of the Divine." Joseph Campbell

RonMartin(deceased)

Jay

In reality only one thing will give you a GOOD bonsai and that is time. By this I mean time working with the material. There are not too many short cuts. Only time will give you the best in this art form.
Now you have to decide on whose time to use. Your time or pay for someone else's time.
You spend the time , pinching, pruning, wiring and otherwise preparing the material or
This goes not only for the "finished" bonsai but the raw material to work with as well.
I hope that this simple answer makes some sense and helps you make a decision.

FredL

Back in my previous incarnation as a Computer System Developer, I often was saddened by the terrible decisions I would see made during the course of developing computer systems by management that simply had not experienced the many ways that such work could go wrong. Finally, I came to the realization that there is simply no substitute for experience. None! Nada!

So it is with bonsai. With my two or three years of experience (repeated 3 or 4 times), I lack important components of the experience of people who have worked with bonsai for many years. Plus, I simply lack the talent to quickly absorb and understand important parts of the understanding that really outstanding people in this field of endeavor have.

I do not really gain experience by participating in this forum. Rather, I gain sensitivity to things to watch for. It helps me to gain more from my experience than I otherwise would.

I do not feel that this is reason for despair. It is my intention to stumble along, learning as I go, making mistakes, killing trees, turning out trees with little artistic merit from the large amount of second rate material I have accumulated until finally I begin to receive a little of the inevitable enlightenment which comes to those who persevere.

The reason that I am willing to do this is because the process involved is so much fun! I love the little trees I'm working with, even tho they may be years away from being bonsai, in fact, even if they never are. And I've really enjoyed the rapid learning that I'm involved in.

Thanks all, Fred

RonMartin(deceased)

Fred
As long as you can get up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror and say the above honestly to your self then you are doing bonsai in the best possible way. Change nothing about what you are doing. Be content and accept my admiration

Carl_Bergstrom

A few thoughts:

Jay has raised an intriguing issue, one that I'm thinking about a lot more this year than I was say a couple of years ago.

My abilities right now are here (finger and thumb held three inches apart). In a decade, I hope they'll be here (hands held one foot apart).

Now contrast this with my budget. Right now, as a state employee, it's here (finger and thumb held three inches apart). If our state legislature has its way, in a decade it'll be here (finger and thumb held three inches apart).

Agreed, there's no substitute for experience and one has to get experience by working on trees...so I have a back yard full of trees that I more or less experiment on, learning as I go. But still I'd like to plan ahead a bit, and start a few trees to "set aside" now so that in ten years I'll have access to some really sweet stock that I perhaps would not be able to otherwise afford.

The problem is that I can't just stick those trees in the ground and look the other way for a decade. And given where my bonsai skills are at the moment, I don't want to style them too completely given that I'll doubtless be gaining experience over the years. The question, then, is how to find the right balance.

How can I, as a comparative novice, conservatively prepare rough stock to be styled by a (hopefully) more talented me in a decade or so?

Obviously I need them in growing beds or boxes, etc....but how much pruning does one do, and so forth? I think I more or less can guess what to do for most deciduous species (though even there I could use suggestions!) but when it comes to conifers, I really don't know how to plan that far ahead without knowing what I'm doing now.

Best regards,
Old Mister Crow

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In love with trees

Bonsainut

Crow, Jay, guys, all,

I think the off season has made you worry too much. maybe you feel time is going by and bonsai work is not being done because of the cold. What ever it is, dont worry!

In 1990 I met a man who had the most unbelievable bonsai collection. I asked where he got them. He said I grew them from cuttings and seeds and small nursery stock.

I was so envious. Big thick trunks everywhere. More than one man deserved. So His advice was just start in. Cuttings, seeds stock.

Skip ahead to now. My yard is full. More than one man could deserve or afford. Now when they come over I can see the envy. I give the same advice. Just start . Time does the rest.

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Keep growing,---'Nut



Lethal Use of Farce

Carl_Bergstrom

Hi Bonsainut,

I think you may have just hit the nail on the head. I spent the day in my back yard, trying to make work for myself, I wanted to play with my trees so badly.

I like your anecdote, as well. That's a good point, and further inspiration to me to get a few more beds of small maple varieties going.

All the best,
OMC

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In love with trees

bonsaial1

Let's see, how many personal collections have I seen, well there's that guy's and oh yea, Buford's ahh, I have seen well over fifty personal collections. I can safely say that most of the best trees in those collections have been stock that had been started by someone else say twenty years earlier, bought at an estate sale, given to them by the wife of a deceased bonsai friend or something like maybe buying 'nearly compleated stock'.

Ask around in the bonsai group you run in. ask at the club of the members that have the really nice collections where their stock came from. Tell them what you are seeking, and to be straight with you because you really need to know. A lot of folks will stretch the truth a little about where their stock came from, so as not to raise eyebrows when it comes time to show it. You will find for the most part that these trees came from the exact places I just mentioned.

There is nothing wrong with buying a finished piece here and there to refine over the years. Buying stock at a bonsai swap meet is really the best place to get really good stuff at a reasonable price. The years are there that take the 'stretch marks' out of the piece. The difference between two years ramification is nothing like 10 years work.

To have a really nice collection of say 10 trees, figure on spending about 100.00 to 500.00 per plant, depending on how large the trees are. (Thats why my passion is with shohin)


To have areally nice tree, you got to spend really nice money. But, that does not mean that a tree marked at 300.00 dollars is the best tree for the money. It still has to have value. The value part is where the guy that buys the trees, and the guy that sells the trees differ.

The maple I bought was every bit worth 140.00 dollars that I paid for it, same with the nearly finished semi-cascade shimpaku at 139.00. There were other trees there at 140.00, but in my opinion when set side by side they did not stack up. Trouble is the grower has the same amount of time, water, fertilizer, and paying of help invested in both trees. So, hence they are the same price. Sooo.... this is why I say, buy the best, pay the price to get it, and leave the rest for some other loser.

Bonsai-al

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Experience is fundamental