Guide To Bonsai Critique

K.A. Rutledge

Jay writes:
"To my thinking, and we all know I can (and often am) wrong, it is more important to understand something than to be able to do it. To have the knowledge of how is more important than the ability to do."


You have just cited the inherent danger and utter uselessness of this approach. I'm sorry that you don't understand this, but what is important is being able to do it! This is the reason we study something involving technique and skill. In technical pursuits, even if you "understand" something, if you can't do it, you don't understand jack.

For instance, you can read every book on poker ever written - at which point you will believe you have a deep understanding of the game. I promise you, however, that the first time you get to a real table with the big boys, you will lose everything in a very short time. Guaranteed. The only thing that matters in poker is playing it and playing it and playing it against real people for high stakes. Understanding it means diddley squat. If, however, you practice - you play against people for a while, you will know how to play and you will learn to understand the game far better than you ever could from reading or watching. It is no different at all with bonsai or any other skill-based endeavor.

"By this I mean if we understand and can see the 'tree' we will at some point acquire the skill to do."

No we won't. We will be so impressed that we "understand" the tree that we'll never devote the necessary time in practice - boring, repetitive, pedantic, essential practice that is necessary for real understanding, knowledge and skill.

Over the years, I have been lucky (or cursed) to have witnessed the study/learning process for hundreds of students in skill/technical based pursuits. In every case, and I do mean every case, those who simply did the work, put in the endless practice, regarless of base ability, acquired good proficiency. At the same time, every one of those individuals who thought it was more important to understand what they were supposed to be doing, posed a barrage of questions to the instructor and constantly read-up on what they were supposed to be doing never amounted to anything in the realm of what matters - ability to actually do. This includes what I've seen in bonsai.

"But, if we only have the ability to do, we will perhaps stumble on a good tree here and there, but, the knowlege of why isn't there!"

Again, I'm sorry that you don't get this, but this is a naive and inaccurate belief. Since you've obviously never taken the practice approach, you cannot understand it, but what happens when you learn to do is the whys and wherefores become clear in a short time. Every question a student of a technical endeavor asks is unnecessary. Every answer to every question I've ever heard a student of such an endeavor ask is revealed very easily through the requisite practice. Sure, students don't generally know this or understand this, and this is why we're just supposed to shut up and do what the teacher tells us to do.

This way, what happens is that the student acquires the necessary skill and technique through practice, and then the whys and wherefores are revealed, giving the student both the necessary skill and the necessary depth of understanding. I have never in my experience seen the opposite approach prove to be effective. Never. It does not work. To claim otherwise is to discount human nature.

So, I encourage those who have years of experience in teaching or observing students of technical/skill based endeavors to cite their experience to the contrary. Without this relevant data, suggesting that someone "might" be able to take the understanding without doing tack toward proficiency is just something you made up because it sounds nice, but it has no bearing on reality. Just because it "seems to you" that it could work is not evidence that it does.

Some of us have heard a teacher (of any endeavor) say that with a new class of students they can spot the washouts in the first week. We may think this is just bunk. It's not. They can do this becuase they know something we don't. In most cases they're referring to the very issue we're discussing here. It is the most telling presage of a student's eventual success.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8 Texas

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Ralph

Hey guys, I am enjoying this very lively debate, just disappointed that we won't get Ron in Dallas in the very near future. Oh well, patience, hopefully one day we will.

RonMartin(deceased)

I have a daughter that lives in Dallas and do go there a couple times a year. Never know we might meet up one day.
She keeps trying to get me to move out there. Not sure if I want to but one never knows. It is not a bad place.

Attila

As much as I resent it, I have to agree with Andy in the understanding vs. practicing debate.

In my line of work, trading in the financial markets can only be learnt by practicing. I've seen countless examples where highly educated people who claimed to understand the markets from studying took up trading without going through a lengthy time of apprenticeship (involving routine, boring practicing).

The outcome is the same WITHOUT EXCEPTION. They lose the money they came with, give up and leave. I've never in my life seen an example where somebody, armed with a good theoretical understanding and no routine practicing, achieved any lasting success in this field. Not even after reading half of a library.

And this is in spite the fact that trading is an intellectual activity. You would think that, since it's mental, understanding would be enough. In bonsai, this is even more true since it involves both mental and physical activities (how about becoming a good baseball player without practicing, just by understanding the game?).

I don't think that Andy discounts understanding. He is just saying that with practice comes a deeper understanding and all questions get answered in due time. When you practice first, you learn to ask the right questions and you get to answer most of them without any help.


Attila

Jay

Andy, we agree to disagree.

In many things in life, knowing why, will lead to doing. How many great sports figures are able to be teachers or coaches? How many great lawyers or doctors can become teachers? Actors... Engineers etc etc. In every group mentioned those who have the knowledge and the ability to teach can and hopefully do. But those who are great at that 'profession' are not necessarily capable of being great teachers; many times the less ‘gifted’ make the best teachers.

Just because someone has a gift to do something, does not mean they are able to transfer that knowledge to others. Yes, it is important to be able to 'do' but without the knowledge of why it is a simple mechanical response. You seem to feel that the only way to learn is by practice practice practice… and I must not understand because, in your words, “but this is a naive and inaccurate belief. Since you've obviously never taken the practice approach” I didn’t realize you knew me that well..or is this an assume on your part?

If you were to have a room full of individuals, all with no knowledge of xxx (fill in the subject, say Bonsai) and have a person in front telling them to do this and that exactly as he/she wants without questions, over and over and over. You will get a large group of individuals who can produce cookie cutter trees, just like the original or they will not know what to do with a tree that is mildly different.

Bonsai is different than everything, but it is like everything in other ways. I would much rather have a teacher who knew 'what was' and 'how to' and could give that knowledge and explain it to my questions, than to have a 'Master' who could do miracles with a tree, but could only say...'Do this' why, because I say so!

Andy, I do respect your opinion, but I still can not see how ability without knowledge will lead to knowledge… while knowledge without ability can not lead to ability.

Respectfully
Jay

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

RonMartin(deceased)

Andy
I just got done reading your E-book. Spent most of the morning reading it. Actually it is a pretty good book. Does a good job of explaining the why of the ascetics of bonsai. I actually learned a lot from it.
I especially like the part where you said "After all, communication requires understanding on the part of both the speaker and the listener."
A good thing for a teacher as well as the student to remember. Both need to understand the why of things. Better than doing it just because you are told to.

Jay

Attila, sorry did not notice your reply to my entry earlier. First don't resent agreeing with Andy, I feel he is right as much as the next guy. I just have problems with the absolute.
As for the example you give (stock trading), I bet that those who do not ask questions at all.. do what they are told, follow the leader types also don't do as well as say those who "do go through a lengthy time of apprenticeship (involving routine, boring practicing)", but who question things along the way, question the norm and ask.

Not for a minute do I believe you can learn anything from only a book or a demo or a class. And yes with the physical part of Bonsai, doing is a most. But as a child of the 60's I ask questions to learn, perhaps I am nieve as Andy suggests, and for sure I will not reach the heights of others in capability but it will be more from my personal limitations not my desire to learn through 'wax on, wax off'

nieve
Jay

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

TreeBay

(Earlier) Andy: There is no room for debate and second guessing in a teacher/student situation

(Earlier) Jay: why can a student not question his teacher?

(More recently) Jay: I ask questions to learn.

Jay, there is a difference between "asking a question" and "questioning the teacher."

It may be semantics, but it may be the cause of the confusion.

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Jay

Matt, thank you for bringing up what was obviously very poor wording on my part. I do not want it to look like I want to question a teacher, I would as you put it ask questions of a teacher.

If this is a part of a misunderstanding, it is mine to correct!

Jay.. who needs to say what he thinks correctly

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing