Guide To Bonsai Critique

pdbbonsai

Hi,

Perhaps many of you seen the recent contest on critiques. I for one was kind of shy about jumping in with my thoughts, and perhaps should have put in a disclaimer like Carl did.

BTW COngrats Carl!!!

Before I even read the contest parameters. I had always thought that judging or giving a critique would be hard. Especially if you really dont know what to look for.

Here is a guide, found at Bonsai4me.com

Come on Al, I upped the odds that I wont win by giving the members here the Cliff notes.....bring on the next contest.

Paul

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K.A. Rutledge

Paul,

There are some good points in the Bonsai4me.com evaluation criteria, but there are some incorrect points as well. This is not a very good overall list of criteria. Much better and more relevant criteria lists are available from Ron Martin and Dave De Groot.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

pdbbonsai

Andy,
I only found it helpful, albeit a broad or general overview, I thought it covered it well. I havent seen Ron's or Dave's lists to agree or disagree with you.

I looked (not thoroughly due to time) for links online....can you point people in the that direction please? (to Ron's or Mr DeGroots lists)

No disrespect, but when YOU seem to disagree with points made, you dont explain why. If you would be so kind, I would like to know what points in that guide are incorrect, and perhaps letting the kind folks at Bonsai4me.com know as well. You have mentioned before time and again that there is a dis-service online. How do we go about changing that? This forum is a great place to start. Please do not take this as a challenge or a charge at you. I am trying to learn this as well as the next guy/gal.

Paul

__________________
It is essential to experience all the times and moods of one good place. (Thomas Merton)

BonsaiTalk is one good place. (me)

RonMartin(deceased)

Guess I should weigh in here after all my name has been used.
Yes I have a critique sheet that I use. Mostly on my trees but I do hand it out to clubs when I am there. Some clubs have even used it, much to my surprise.
Mine does not assign points or follow the established rules as much as the others do. That might be good or bad depending on your point of view.
It all boils down to the following.
1. Find out what the artist was trying to portray.
Did he achieve this view. A simple yes or no is required.
2. I look for things that are right not wrong.
By pointing out what is right the artist can usually find the wrong things all by himself. Always going for the mistakes is not all that good on the ego. Bad ego blocks learning.
3. Is the over all view a pleasing one.
4. Is there balance to the tree. ( color, texture.etc.)
Does the mass of foliage vs. branch, branch vs. trunk make the tree believable.

There is more to it than that but that is the gist of it.
I would post the critique sheet here but some of it was borrowed verbatim (with permission) from David De Groot's sheet. I only have permission to use his words on a limited basis. My sheet is mostly a gentler version of his.
I would like to say a couple of things though.
First any critique sheet needs to be written for the event that is to be used in. No one critique is a "one size fits all" Each event will be different. Each needs to set its own goals and standards.
Most important thing to remember though is that a critique is only one persons opinion. His or her interpretation of what is acceptable. Take that critique for what it is worth. Opinions vary greatly even among the experts. And heavens knows that I am no expert.
I know that this doesn't do much to help the conversation. I just has to pipe in my $2 worth (used to be 2 cents but then inflation came along)

K.A. Rutledge

Paul writes:
"Andy,
I only found it helpful, albeit a broad or general overview, I thought it covered it well. I havent seen Ron's or Dave's lists to agree or disagree with you. I looked (not thoroughly due to time) for links online....can you point people in the that direction please? (to Ron's or Mr DeGroots lists)"
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For either of these, you'll have to contact Ron and/or Dave and ask for them. I don't have Ron's handy (I'll have to find it) and I don't have Dave's permission to post his. If I can get these, you can get these. Give it a try.
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"You have mentioned before time and again that there is a dis-service online. How do we go about changing that? This forum is a great place to start. Please do not take this as a challenge or a charge at you. I am trying to learn this as well as the next guy/gal.
Paul"
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Paul, we don't change that. Idiots will ever put their tripe on the internet and they have every freedom to do so. We can't stop that or change that. This particular case of the list of criteria is not necessarily tripe, but it has some bad information in it. It is not a good resource. If you're not sure that it is excellent, why lead others to it?
--------------

"No disrespect, but when YOU seem to disagree with points made, you dont explain why. If you would be so kind, I would like to know what points in that guide are incorrect, and perhaps letting the kind folks at Bonsai4me.com know as well."
--------------

I'm not here to teach. I'm here to discuss and debate. If we all learn in that process -- that's great! What a bonus! This is not a bonsai school and I'm not the teacher and neither is anyone else. This is a discussion forum and it must not be assumed that it is a learning institution. If it is, then this is a bastardized and regrettable way to teach and learn - where every bit of information must be proved to be correct before it is considered and where everyone carries a license to "teach" so no one trusts those who offer information.

Yes, I believe that spoonfeeding information is the worst possible way to help others learn. In may ways it prevents learning. If I "tell" you this and "tell" you that here on a discussion forum (not a bonsai school), these things become issues for debate and it is unlikely that any real learning takes place. Furthermore, I'll be criticized and insulted for my presumption to "tell" anyone anything in the first place. And don't try and say that I'm wrong on this point - history proves my point for me.

The best way, by far, to facilitate learning is to leave people with more questions rather than limited to a couple of answers. I can't "learn" you. You have to do the learning and what passes for "teaching" may or may not impact your learning. This is not a bonsai school, this is a discussion forum. There is no room for debate and second guessing in a teacher/student situation. If you believe there is, you're either a poor student or you're with the wrong teacher. You either trust them or you don't. There is no middle ground.

So, I've got a better idea. How about you take it upon yourself to look into this matter, research things, study and then you tell me what is wrong with that list of criteria on bonsai4me. This way, you learn 10 or 20 times more than if I or anyone else simply gives you an answer (which you'll take as opinion and discard anyway).

And yes, Paul, I do believe you are challenging me. This forum has become rife with challenges for this or that person to prove that they know what they're talking about. This is just how discussion forums work (unlike schools). This happens to me on a regular basis and I've put up with it, demonstrating in each case that I'm not spreading manure. I believe I've made my point, and I'm done. I'm here to debate and discuss (the purpose for discussion forums). I'm not answering any more challenges and I'm not carrying a spoon.

I'm not giving any more reasons for my views or for my information. Many disagree with my opinions (great, lets discuss what you have to counter with!) and many don't appreciate my tone (usually mis-translated anyway) now and then -- but I don't give bad information. I believe I've made that clear by now. If you believe otherwise, you prove me wrong. The onus is on you.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

RonMartin(deceased)

Andy
No Kind regards here. For a change you have spoken the truth.
I know that there is a penalty for my following words but I really cant stand it any more.
You may not be a teacher but some on this list are. They do so by trying to answer questions. Sometimes they fail but at least they try. Most of the time they do a pretty good job.
You my friend are here to create controversy. To suit your own agenda.
Some will think this is a personal vendetta but it is not. It is just a cry from the dark for you to stop and think. You are doing a great disservice to yourself.
I personally think that you know a great deal about bonsai. Problem is that you also know how to turn off those that you are trying to enlighten. Not a good thing.
Tell you what. If you know so much why don't you get a couple of trees together. Throw in an audience. I'll fly to Dallas on my own dime. We will go head to head on the stage and see who knows the most.
I challenged my instructors. Made them explain their thought processes. According to your criteria I was a bad student. You should beat me easily.
How about it. You game.
Sorry to the rest of you for my outburst. I just could not stand the posturing anymore.
The baqll is in your court Andy.
Damn and I thought this might be a nice thread ;o(

K.A. Rutledge

:-) Yes, Ron, of course we'll do this - because bonsai is a domination sport. Bonsai is about beating the other guy. We all know that I can't win unless you lose - and you can win unless I lose. And let's face it, we're here to win, right? It's a zero sum game and it's all about winning. What's important is who "knows the most," as you put it

What drugs are you taking these days? ;-) Have another beer. You deserve it.

Sorry to disappoint you Ron, but I have no agenda. I just don't suffer fools. I'm not interested in how much you know. I'm here to entertain myself, discuss things and debate substance (not idiocy). Do you have something of substance to say? I look forward to it. ;-)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

RonMartin(deceased)

No big surprises in your comments.
But when do I come to Dallas

TreeBay

This could be fun. It could be a little like the Fantasy Koku-fu Theatre. Andy and Ron, the two of need to wear some bigtime wrestling body suits. Al can do the ringside announcing. As venue moderator, of course, I'll take 30 percent of the door and the popcorn and beer concessions.

Andy, you get Internet pay-per-view rights over at BonsaiTodayOnline.com. Ron, you get a piece of the door and your own bonsai action figure.

The rules will be simple. Two men, two trees, two hours. I want a clean fight, and absolutely no pinching below the belt!

Regards,

Matt

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