Is this graft technique possible on black pine?

malix

In an article in Bonsai Today there was a "one point graft" that was demonstrated on Japanese five-needle pine of the Zuisho variety (very flexible). This graft is similar to the thread graft used on deciduous trees which I use with lots of succes to place branches right where I need them.

The one point graft goes like this...A whole is drilled in the branch or trunk of the tree with and electric drill. Then a long thin branch is bent over on itself creating a pointed section where the severe bend is made that can be inserted into the drilled hole.. before inserting a cut is made one side of the point with a sharp knife to allow the graft to take place....after insertion a wedge and some sealer and you are good to go.. the branch is still attached to its root system like a thread graft ...except this is on a pine that could not accept a thread graft due to the needles.

It seems to me that this graft (if possible on any type of tree that allows the severe bend without breaking the branch) would be a very safe technique to attept on any tree with a relatively high success rate compared to scion grafting or bud grafts (any graft where the scion is separated from its root system).

My question is does it seem possible that black pine would allow this treatment on its thinner branches . I dont have enough experience with pine to know whether its branches could be bent this way... Or could black pine seedlings be prepared this way bending slowly over months to use them specifically for this graft.

The traditional form of grafting black pine is grafting scions on the branches that are already in place.. You cant graft directly to the trunk in that manner with high success rates..I have only one black pine at this point and its in a trunk thickening stage where I would love to water and fertilize heavily to acheive a big fat trunk as soon as possible and not have to worry as much about trying to salvage some of the branches for later on.. So this would be great if possible..Or it would even be possible to buy a landscape pine with large base and graft branches or seedlings in little pots directly to the lower trunk just where I need them..

Do you you think this is a possibility with black pine??

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Jay

Malix,
Welcome to the forum. This is not an answer to your question but an informational answer for your knowledge. Even if you have a question that falls into several categories in the forum, choose one. Place your question in that one. I note that this exact post appears in at least three places. When in doubt which place is correct choose the General Forum.

Think about it... three listings takes up a lot more sever space than one... and the answers and discussions become disjointed with different people jumping into different entries of the same question.

Don't feel bad, many new members do this without knowing it is to be avoided.
Again welcome and good luck with the Pine.

Jay

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malix

Yep sorry .. I tried to delete the others.... but couldnt see that it was an option... I also tried to erase all info on the others..


wont happen again..

Thanks.

bonsaikc

My first reaction is that Japanese black pine are not flexible enough to use this technique. The buds are thicker and more turgid than Japanese white pine, especially zuisho, which operates under its own rules. Bud grafting is, of course, the widely accepted method of grafting JBP. It's not difficult with a few pointers, and highly effective.

Chris

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Sashi-no-eda.blogspot.com

Kansas City Area Workshops 2008

malix

With regard to bud grafting.. my understanding is that success is much diminished when grafting directly to an older trunk.. therfore buds are normally grafted onto the branches near the trunk...

The outcome is that branches can therefor not be created in exact locations but only where branches are already in place...

Is this correct or do you have a good percentage of success grafting directly to the trunk...

Would perhaps wrapping raffia or grafting tape on thin branches or seedlings and then bending over time provide the bend necessary for this one point graft?

TreeBay

Japanese Black Pine tends to make nice plump shoots that will graft rather easily if you line up the cambium properly, so I am not sure that a thread graft technique is warranted.

However, I successfully thread grafted Japanese White Pine almost ten years ago using a similar technique. About the only difference was that I used a short length of plastic soda straw slit lengthwise and collapsed over the needles to help me guide a minimal number of needles, still on the bud, through the hole in the trunk. It was pretty slow to take. It took about 3 years to become obvious that it was successfully grafted. It takes a takes a larger hole to get a pine bud through than it might for a leafless deciduous tree.

I have not seen that thread graft technique used before with Black Pine, but you could probably do it if you wanted to.

There are grafting chisels available that will let you position a shoot right into the trunk if that is what you want to do, although corking can make it more difficult. As you noted, buds are normally grafted to existing branches on points near the trunk, because it is easier, but usually because the branches are not properly developed (lacking ramification, lacking taper, lacking movement, lacking inner branchlets) although they are basically in the right position.

Regards,

Matt

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Jerry Meislik

My expereince with JBP is with free grafts and approach grafts. The graft described above is a variant of the approach graft but it requires the branch to be bent so sharply that it may break it.
Matt's comments are right on. Grafting to a corky bark trunk can be a chore because the vascular layers are tough to align and to recognize in the older materials.
Good luck.
Jerry

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Whitefish Montana USA
Zone 4-5
http://www.bonsaihunk.us/

bonsaikc

For grafting onto an older JBP trunk other than a very corky corticosa, simply use a chisel (not your grafting knife!) to remove the outer bark from the place you wish to graft. You will find it relatively easy to graft anywhere you wish in this manner.

Chris

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Chris Johnston
Sashi-no-eda.blogspot.com

Kansas City Area Workshops 2008

CScott

I read that article from Bonsai Today with a great deal of interest. Every attempt at a classic graft had failed miserably, even after a two day class on the subject. I can now report grafting success with a lodgepole pine and an elderica pine, both very limber. For lack of a better term I have been calling it a "stuff" graft, since that is essentially what happens. What worked for me was to drill two adjoining holes 1/2 to 5/8 inch deep, using a bit that is diameter of the stem, then reaming them to an oval shape with a gouge. Scrape the bark to the cambium on the inner and outer edges of the bent graft. Even if the sharpest part of the bend cracks if there is connected bark on the sides it will work. After stuffing the bend into the hole (it should be a tight fit) jam a toothpick or two in any gaps. Cover all the edges with cut paste, wrap in wet sphagnum moss and cover with plastic. The needles are open to the air.

The most amazing part of this method is that you can graft on thin branches with side branching, putting you at least two years ahead in branch formation, and the angle of placement can be whatever you want. I have a JBP that I am planning to graft wtih this method in a week. As long as you can get long thin lanky branches to use it should work.

Now the interesting part. Why not try the same method with roots? Think of the possibilites!

Carmen