Graft black pine onto Ponderosa?

malix

Hi all.

I love the trunks on collected Ponderosa but the foliage is somewhat unattractive. The needles seem too long. They are sometimes curved rather than straight ( maybe due to their length?).. and the color of black pine needles seems to be a more vibrant geen.

Has anyone done this? Does it make a better bonsai?

Does the bark match up in color and texture as they age?? Would there be any uneven growth between one and he other such as with Five needle and black pine. In the case of five needle and black pine grafts there is usually a huge discrepency and it makes the plants look terrible IMO.

Just wondering if anyone has explored this or what your opinions might be.

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rlist

I have heard of using ponderosa pine (OB.com preference), black pine (Gary Wood preference), red pine (Mike Hagedorn suggestion), scots pine (Nick Lenz preference) and even white pine (Boon suggestion). The most common is using black pine, though.

I personally would rather keep the tree as natural as possible, and use time & ramification to reduce the needles - they will be somewhat long and possibly always have the yellow/grey sickness look to them, but that is the nature of the beast. Should I ever graft one of my ponderosas, I will first look to genetically short needled ponderosas first (I actually have one) and then black pine second.

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rockm

"Does it make a better bonsai?"

That's the big question. Undoubtedly, the needles would be smaller and the tree would look neater. But is that really the point of having an old collected specimen? It is only one definition of a "better bonsai."

Another definition might be that accepting the quirks of a species is part of the collecting game. You sometimes exchange long needles for rugged trunks, twisted branching that can't be reproduced, or some other feature that draws you to the tree.

I have a 200 year old live oak bonsai whose leaves are a bit on the large side (but not in the ridiculous range), it produces acorns that are out of scale, but I would not graft cork oak foliage onto it. It is authentic as it is, has survived too long for me to insult it by attaching alien leaves to it.

Vonsgardens

Black pine on Ponderosa? Of course, why not? Of course not, why would you? Grafting is no more cheating or altering of the plant than is wiring- in my opinion. I have a few in the ground that Harold Sasaki grafted, look fine to me- nothing to shout about. But, I also Roy Nagatoshi's California Junipers with Shimpaku grafted on them (his dad did them a long time ago), Mas and Gary Ishii's nifty little grafts (notice I am including Gary as well, he is a rising star in my view) and Boon's stunning Sierra Juniper with Shimpaku gafted on it over 40 years ago.

Some peolpe don't like this practice. Fine. I also know people that believe they can create bonsai without wiring. Fine. I do and I don't, in order.

Grafting branches is a fine and noble technique. Grafting trunks, well that is a really tough proposition for bonsai, but can be done.

Just my thoughts, whack away.

John

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Graydon

I love the trunks as well. I see where you are going with this thought but there are some things to consider before resorting to an iffy procedure (grafting). Needle reduction techniques work well. I have a couple of ponderosa with nice needles. Shorter than typical JBP. Speaking of JBP there are many with long needles, some contorted and even others with a non vibrant green needle.

I am sure it has been done, perhaps just to say it has been done. Better? That's a huge chasm of opinion that I don't want to try to cross.

Good questions. I do not think the barks would match up perfectly but that alone would not spoil it - not nearly as bad as a poor graft would. It would also depend on the scion stock of the JBP. There are a lot of barks on JBP. It would take some research to try and find one that looks good to you.



If you choose to go down this path practice the art of grafting. Get good with the mechanics and timing. Then attempt on scrub stock - I am sure someone out there has some less than perfect collected stock. I would spend some time studying JBP to find that perfect match of bark. Perhaps a frankenstein tree with many JBP cultivar scions in various places. In a few years you would see what looks the best.

Sounds like a lot of work and waiting time to see what the results might be... Sounds like a good challenge.

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malix

[QUOTE=Graydon]I love the trunks as well. I see where you are going with this thought but there are some things to consider before resorting to an iffy procedure (grafting). Needle reduction techniques work well. I have a couple of ponderosa with nice needles. Shorter than typical JBP. Speaking of JBP there are many with long needles, some contorted and even others with a non vibrant green needle.

Graydon. If you have time could you provide a photo of your ponderosa with reduced needles? That would be great to see, thanks. It would be geat to see how much reduction can be acheived by just pinching and pruning.

Also. RockM To call grafting foliage on a wild tree an insult seems a bit strict. If you see things that way is it any worse to collect an ancient and wild tree from what its called home for centuries or longer? To take the chance that it might die in the process?Is it an insult to Cut, wire, and bend it? We Practice bonsai here and so we are by all by nature willing to manipulate it to some degree.

rockm

"Also. RockM To call grafting foliage on a wild tree an insult seems a bit strict. If you see things that way is it any worse to collect an ancient and wild tree from what its called home for centuries or longer? To take the chance that it might die in the process?Is it an insult to Cut, wire, and bend it? We Practice bonsai here and so we are by all by nature willing to manipulate it to some degree."

Oh Bull. I make no bones about being able to collect trees. I'm making an opininated statement about how collected trees are handled. You asked if such things made better bonsai. I'm answering.

I just like to keep the genuine character (look the word up before anyone starts telling me that interspecies grafted trees are genuine examples of a given species) of a collected tree intact. I don't see old collected stock as simple building blocks for a "better" genetically engineered tree down the road. Completely removing their foliage and replacing it with completely different genetic material seems a bit over the top--to me.

Some folks don't care, or are looking to create a more perfect tree. Good for them. More power to them. May their grafts be unnoticable and the results stunning.

I think a collected tree loses a bit of its inherent character when you start futzing around with such an integral part of what it is. I like imperfections--up to a point. My limit on them is just different from others'.

Graydon

Sure. I will try to do it in the next few days. In my mind they seem to be in the 1 1/2" range, some perhaps a little longer and some a little shorter. I only post that as it will be interesting to see what size they are wsith a tape measure.

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rschlafer

The Bonsai shop I volunteer has 3 or 4 white pines that were grafted onto a ponderose YEARS and YEARS ago.......and they look magnificient!!!.

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