Ginkgo?

Attila

Frogboy,

Stating that gingko is not really a suitable bonsai speciment sounds like you are stating a fact. When in fact this is only you personal opinion.

Gingko is a perfecty good bonsai specimen, if you know how to work with it (and it's not that hard to learn). It just requires treatment specific to this species. It is true that it cannot be shaped like a juniper or pine, but that's great. Bonsai, as you know is not "one size fits all". Some trees need to be trained differently from others.

And, by the way asking the why all the time is a great thing. But drawing superficial conclusions is usually a sign of inexperience. Gingkos have a very unique look and therefore a great artistic potential. Just use your imagination.

(Rockm made a few great points in this thread)

Regards,
Attila

Advertisement

rockm

"Bonsai is in fact making a tree look like a tree, nothing else will quite work. Sure, the idealistic tree, the perfect tree, the tree that speaks volumes, but never the less, still a tree."

Not really a fact. Chinese penjing (admittedly not bonsai, but very closely related) includes trees grown to resemble animals--Elephants, deer and such are the most common subjects. See various Chinese penjing books and this style is quite common. Even bonsai has an archaic "octopus" style that bears little, if any, resemblance to natural trees... "Natural" bonsai styles are a relatively recent development. In its earlier years in Japan, some Japanese nobles saw bonsai only as grotesque, unattractive ugly plants. Many were. You can see that in some of the early block prints that have bonsai in them. They are hardly "naturalistic." They tend to be brutish and exaggerated to effect

Given that history, I think there is much more going on with bonsai than simple "trying to make a tree a tree." Bonsai CAN be just that, but at it's best it's much more. Underlying that effort, is a larger form of expression. Bonsai is personal expression that transcends simple gardening...

Will_Heath

Mark,

I expected this long ago, were you busy? Even you have to admit that bonsai and penjing are two different things. I distinctly directed my comments to bonsai, not penjing.

Like the artist who was asked how he could possibly carve a elephant out of a square piece of granite....he simply said, "It's easy, just take away everything that doesn't look like a elephant."

Making a bonsai look like a car, a boat, a dog is more like topiary to my mind, it has it's place and is fine in it's own right, but bonsai? I don't think so.


Will

rockm

Will, no need to get snippy.

examples of exaggerated "untreelike" bonsai aren't hard to come by. Octopus style-- http://www.japan-101.com/gallery/gardens/3087484_G, is a little less than "natural." As is "Horai-style" which is grown specifically for its unnatural, tortured and twisted trunk. Root exposed (Neagari) style could be argued to be "natural" because some plants grow that way, but in it's most extreme (also archaic) form, this style was done more to give the impression of the tree's "walking" on a set of legs, than the impression of a mountainside.

A little research into older bonsai texts provides great insight into the devleopment of bonsai not only in the west, but in Japan since WWII. Things have changed greatly in the last 100 years.

John Dixon

Personally, I like gingkos and have a few in my collection (all are younger trees, however). They're traditional bonsai shape (flame) becomes apparent especially when you grow them yourself. I don't want it to look like a pine, I have pines. The fall color is reason enough alone to raise them, in my opinion.

The genus is very interesting. Has anyone else watched them drop their leaves? All leaves drop in a very short period of time. On of the big ones outside my office is a prime example. Three years ago I remember coming into work one morning and saw a few leaves falling. By lunch they were falling so fast it almost look like a "shower" of leaves. By quitting time, EVERY leaf had fallen. Amazing.

Not as spectacular this year. It took about three days.

John

__________________
John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Attila

This question has just reminded me of the gingkos on Huntington boulevard here close to my house. There is a long lane of huge gingko trees in the divider lane. A few weeks ago when I was driving by the trees were covered in gold. Two days later I drove by again and the trees were almost completely bare. The thick carpet of gold on the grass was amazing.

Will_Heath

Mark,

I said this on my first post here, you are preaching to the choir here.

I am curious to see a bonsai style yet that can not be found in nature, in one form or another.

So Mark, I am not quite understanding what you are trying to say here, are you saying that if I showed a tree pruned to look like a chair, that it would be bonsai? Technallically, any plant in a pot can be defined as bonsai but the must be a line there somewhere, where do you feel the line is drawn?

Personally I feel the line is drawn, as I have said, when the plant no longer looks like a tree. The examples you gave in your last posts all looked like trees.....


Will

rockm

What I'm saying is, and what you seem to object to, is that bonsai isn't really as cut and dried as "making a tree look like a tree. I say it goes significantly beyond "straight oaks, twisted pines, rounded canopy pines, pointed canopy maples" imagery. I say it's about simple expression using a tree as the medium for that expression.

Bonsai's always really been more about spirit than image. The practice rooted (excuse me ) in spiritual, not artistic, soil. The first trees were kept because the keepers believed they had spiritual qualities, not because they looked like trees. If you look at some of the earlier bonsai, the trunks more resemble writhing animal shapes than "natural" trees. The early bonsaiists were drawn to an elemental force in the tree, not it's particular "treeness." That kind of visceral attraction remains one of bonsai's charms. Something that goes beyond "treeness" to strike a human chord is what bonsai is.

Bonsai can be just about making little trees, but there are numerous examples to the contrary that show it goes beyond that. Horai, for example, is sacred mountain in Japan. Horai style bonsai, scarcely look like any tree I've ever seen. The tend to look like wraiths...

Will_Heath

Mark,

you are swaying from the original subject here, we were not talking about how bonsai makes one feel, or how to enjoy viewing one. We were in fact talking about styling a bonsai.

You said "I say it's about simple expression using a tree as the medium for that expression" I agree, the difference here seems to be on what to express. I claim we are expressing trees, and you claim....?

Help me understand Mark, do you have some pics of your bonsai styled other than how I invision bonsai, that you would share?


With respect,

Will