Ginkgo?

Frogboy

OK, this is probably going to start some flamewar, but it is an honest question.

If one of the admitted purposes of bonsai is to try to recreate the look of a larger tree by forcing a small tree to grow in directions that are not what it wants to do on its own, why do we allow ginkgo to grow in that "candle flame" style that everyone uses?

Full-size ginkgo do not grow that way, neither do any other tree I know of. What they all look like to me is an overgrown garden shrub.

If anyone can explain this, or can show me pictures of trees to the contrary, I would greatly appreciate it. Right now I feel like the only reason is because "that's just the way small ginkgo grows."

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TreeBay

"Flame" war?

The short answer is that Ginkgos are extremely long-lived trees and you probably don't have mature natural specimens to evaluate or appreciate unless you are lucky enough to live in an area where the tree is native. This is completely understandable - it would be a little like asking someone to appreciate a Giant Sequoia who had never seen one that wasn't in a nursery can at Target.

While it is actually rather difficult to get a ginkgo to grow with multi trunked flame shape, that is the characteristic shape of ginkgo and a few other trees that grow in columnar shapes, like maybe a poplar.

Pictures?

This site has scads of venerable ginkgo trees. These are the ginkgos you wanted to see. It is slow to load though.

http://www.kyoboku.com/itefu/ichou1.html

You can also check out some of the trees in Cor's Ginkgo pages.


http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwanten/kumamoto.htm (~1,000 years old!)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwanten/kumamoto2.htm
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwanten/strasbourg1.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwanten/Zuidhorn1.jpg


Regards,

Matt

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EarthgirlOK

True, what Matt said. Also, ginkgos scar SO easily during wiring attempts that it's very hard not to irrepairably damage one. Ginkgos don't heal fast AT ALL so that if damage happens, you're pretty much stuck with it.

I think the reason I have several of them in training is because I have a deep appreciation for the history and character of the species, rather than to produce a more familiar bonsai form. I have other trees to try and achieve that with.

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Frogboy

Let's go the other way, though. I have already seen all of those pictures in my search for the true, old ginkgo shape. Yes those trees are multi-trunked, but they don't have that candle-flame shape that seems to be accepted. I'm not asking about Ginkgo in general as bonsai, as I have found many specimens that are trained to look more like trees. I am specifically asking why the candle-flame is an accepted, if not even preferred, form for bonsai.

As an example, I am including pics from the gallery and the internet. These are examples of what I am talking about. The proportions just seem to be completely off.

I am including a simple drawing of what I am talking about. All of the photos of adult ginkgo trees have trunk:foliage ratios much more like the top image. All of these bonsai have trunk;foliage ratios like the bottom image.

http://web.mawebcenters.com/hollowc...s/03gispec1.jpg

http://web.mawebcenters.com/hollowc...s/03gispec2.jpg

http://pictures.bonsaitalk.com/data...4coolpix150.jpg

http://pictures.bonsaitalk.com/data/538/5smdscf4888.jpg

http://pictures.bonsaitalk.com/data...246417adjsm.jpg

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ginkgocomp.jpg (28.5 KB, 23 views)

EarthgirlOK

OK. Fair point about the ratios.

Maybe you should tell us what answer you are looking for and we can go from there.

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TreeBay

Hi Frogboy,

First, please change any borrowed images to links, we can't go pilfering photos from the Internet like that. Particularly without attribution

>As an example, I am including pics from the gallery and the Internet

I think the mature trees resemble your second sketch more than your first sketch, but still somewhat different. Maybe you could provide your own interpretation of the ...multitrunked... true, old ginkgo shape... and if it is not the flame style, you might be onto something new.

Regards,

Matt

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mike_p

Here's a ginkgo I've been training since about 1990. Height from table is 37 inches.
Mike

Attached Images

ginkgo_1.jpg (69.8 KB, 81 views)

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Frogboy

I knew this would cause a flamewar.

The answer I am looking for is why a bonsai "tree" with the appearance of a low growing shrub should be more desirable than a tree with the appearance of a tree.

All the pictures that Matt referenced do not look like candle-flames to me. Maybe this is too subtle to even be discussing. I think it is just a question of the limitations of growing a tree in a pot. In nature, the multi-trunk trees have much slimmer trunks compared to the overall width of the tree. I've never worked with Ginkgo, so I don't know if it is just too difficult to wire to accomplish a more tree-like image.

I am actually searching for an answer here, not just trying to cause trouble. I don't have an answer already in mind, earthgirl, so I'm not trying to "lead" anybody into saying something. I truly have no idea why Ginkgo is styled this way.

I am including a modified drawing of what I suspect people who end up with the candle-flame are trying to accomplish. It's subtle, but the image on the right has dramatically more space between the ground and the first foliage than any of the bonsai I showed earlier.

These are links of the tree shape that I am talking about. These are all large, adult Ginkgo. They look like trees. Maybe I'm just too picky. I dunno.

Anyway, look at these and tell me why I never see Ginkgo styled like these full-size Ginkgo.

http://home.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/shoya...hima/Ginkgo.jpg

http://www.wustl.edu/images/visit-ginkgo-walk.jpg

http://www.sustainableunh.unh.edu/tree/Photos/Ginkgo(2).jpg

http://www.botanik.univie.ac.at/hbv...n/ginkgo_gr.jpg

http://www.giardinare.it/images/ginkgo.jpg

http://www.chicago-botanic.org/rese...ls/ginkgo_b.jpg

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/...all/ginkgo.jpeg

http://www.bouture.com/ginkgobiloba.jpg

http://www.g-netz.de/Health_Center/...go-biloba-4.jpg

http://www.load.arch.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ginkgo.jpg

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BrianBay9

Gotta say I'm with frogboy here. I've not seen a Gingko bonsai that I like. I have one myself, but the yellow fall color is its only attribute that I really appreciate. I can't do anything to make it look like a tree.

Brian