Formal Display

bonsaial1

In light of the closed thread about language, I thought that maybe a concensus could be reached by the forum about what a formal display should be used for.

My point of view. The personal gallery, and the Formal gallery are there for us to showcase personal achievements. At least that is what they should be used for.
H.B. made a statement in the language thread that the forum Mike used said: Post a picture of your bonsai tree and receive suggestions and constructive criticism.
But it didn't. That is the quote from the show and tell forum. It says nothing in the formal display forum. This is just a place someone should post a photo of a tree that they feel captures the feeling of the artist. Something that the artist may be trying to say.

When I post a tree to my personal Gallery, I post it there to show what I am capable of doing, and what some of my sucesses are. I have tried to post some of the best pictures possible to help showcase my talents in a way that will let people know that what I have to say has some merit.

Just because you may have nothing in your gallery is not to say that what one has to contribute is not noteworthy. Some people just do not like to have pictures of their trees shown. I accept that. I do feel that the gallery is a reflection of those that wish to participate there. Just remember that if you have no gallery, there can be no reflection, and therefore you would be pretty safe. On the other hand, if you do have trees in your gallery, I would think that you have opened yourself up to that reflection, and they should be as best as possible.

The Formal gallery I feel follows the same way. I feel that it dovetails the personal gallery, but gives us the freedom to showcase artistic trees during the seasons, and show them in a more formal setting. While trees in the personal gallery may be just an image of the intended tree, the Formal Gallery is the place that Suiseki, scrolls and accents may be used to build the artistic compositions we like to see from time to time.

I feel this is not the place to add negative comments, nor should this be a place that constructive criticism should take place. There are many places that one could post a tree and recieve all the negative comments one could handle. We have TOD, where a tree could even be placed incognito to really help get some constructive criticism. ATM, where you can open your work up to the critique of Walter Pall, and then the open forum. You could post it in show and tell and hopefully get that important construtive criticism.

I do not have a problem with an artist posting a very nice formal composition, and then ask for constructive criticism at the end. If the poster wanted to get that feedback, they could. I still think there are better places to post it though.

I thought the Formal Gallery was placed there to replace the seasonal shows that I used to do early in the forum. I used to do a summer show and a winter show. By Matt giving it a more formal title, I had hoped we could maintain a high degree of photo achievement. So far we have been. At least to the level we know at the present time. I would think that the photos will only get better. During these seasonal shows, we had a thread going outside of the show thread for comments. I suggested this during the thread. I am not saying that critique of artistic formal compositions should go without critique either. I feel that a sampling from your peers is a good thing. I think that the poster should be the one that sets the tone for either inviting discussion or leaving it out.

Maybe someone would like to critique a tree, and could ask the poster for permission to do so. That thread could be started under the students of bonsai forum, and critique could ensue.

In closing, I know when I post a tree to the formal Gallery, I would ask that those that wish to critique my tree would just ask to critique it. I will gladly post it somewhere else, or allow the asker to do same.

The formal Gallery should be like looking at the bonsaiTALK equivilent of a Kokufu album. The pictures should be there for retrospect, and feeling. They should have the feeling of pureness, and not be ruined by silly comments on trivial aspects of display. I can see just as much in a poor display as I can a good one. I have the ability to see past the small errors, and feel the do not reflect poorly on the artist in this forum.

Does this make any sense? Al Keppler

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TreeBay

Hi Al,

The Formal Displays forum was launched for the presentation and discussion of the formal display - not so much as a silent gallery.

We could create a silent gallery of formal displays in the Gallery, or a show thread as you've pointed out - we've done in the past, but this is perhaps not the best use of a discussion forum.

Regards,

Matt

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bwaynef

I'm with matt, at least in my understanding (that is... theres little to argue the purpose... since he set it up FOR that purpose.) I see no indication why it would be for display without critique.

For that matter, I don't see anywhere critique is not to be expected (when you post an image to the web), except maybe a personal gallery. They will still be judged there, if only used to judge your advice, but maybe not out and out critiqued.

I was not around to see the formation of the formal display gallery (I don't think, I lurked off and on for a while) so I can't attest to the purpose others foresaw for it. I do appreciate those who can put together a display and show off to the rest of us. I simply don't have the trees or resources at the moment. I look forward to more, for critique or not.

WF

ps. I thought this was going to be more a discussion of what makes a formal display work rather than an assessment on whether the forum is to be critiqued.

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Will_Heath

I have to agree with Matt here for various reasons. Please allow me to offer a rebuttal to some points that were made.



I feel that your peers determine if what you have attempted has merit or not, or if you have talent or not. Simply allowing posting without critique or comments will open the door for anyone to post anything which could led to an overall reduction of quality, not to mention bring the learning process to a screeching halt for posters and people like myself who learn also by weighing others critiques against our own beliefs.



I take it that you are defining negative comments as those that do not say what the artist wishes to hear? Both negative and positive comments are instructive. Anyplace that you post your work automatically opens it up for critique. The T.O.D., the gallery, show and tell, general, ask the master, etc. This is part of a public forum and is to be expected, in fact, I look forward to it because even if I do not agree with the comments made, they add to the way I view my work and thereby effect the outcome. As I have said before, if we just wish to view or own work without comments then we should simply hang a picture of it on our wall.


Al, you yourself have commented on the fact that many artists who write books choose their worst bonsai for the cover. This is as far from a public form as you can get and yet we still critique. Take the Elevations Show for example, we all critiqued the show on this forum, many who were not even there. Did these artists ask for a critique? Did we care? The fact is that whenever a work of art is put up for public display, be it in a book, in a gallery, or on a forum, it is automatically put up for critique, some valid, some not, but never-the-less still available and this is the nature of the art.

The good news is that critiques themselves are also available for critique. A poor critique without merit will be quickly challenged. This also is a learning experience.

There is one place here where work can be put up with little critique, the NQRY files.

Will Heath

bonsaial1

As a person that has been often referred to as a person that, "critiques work with words like a bulldozer and is not apologetic to its artist", I find these points valid. I love to give my opinions about someone elses work, and will continue to do so at every chance I get, when I feel its appropriate. I have had many here ask for my personel opinion of their work, both publicly and in private. I'm not saying we abandon the critique portion of the learning process, i'm just saying we should give it the same reverance we have afforded many other things we have done here in the past, and have seen on other forums.

Why do we not allow critique during the contests in the past. This could have really had a positive/negative effect. but... so be it

Why does AoB have a seperate link to the comments portion of its articles. You get to read the article in its pure form with out the commentary that dilutes the actual message. It also keeps threads from going off the deep end which have no beareing on the post in the first place.

If one were to look at the format in its present condition, it is easy to see how this would actualy be good for critique. The page is set up with the formal display at the top when you go there, below that is a sub forum where the tile of the tree could be for comments about the tree.

I understand perfectly well what goes on in each and every thread that is started here. I understand that there is always the possibility that a thread will take off in a manner that was not intended. I just feel that what happened in the thread with Mike Page's tree was unfortunate and added nothing to the presentation of the tree. The ensueing learning curve about how to critique a tree may have benificial to some, but was a distraction to what the tree was posted there for in the first place.

I feel that this should be treated just like any bar fight, "take it outside"

In the last photo I posted to the Formal display, I recieved some comments both good and bad. I am a big boy, and can take the bad with the best of them. I fully uderstood the bad and showed my limitations to why the display was the way it was. Still, I think the message came through about what it was I was trying to say. It is hot in Fresno, and this makes me think of a cool place.

I had no really distracting remarks made in that thread. I had no arguments, no thread hijacking taking the thread to totally out of this world places. It stayed pretty calm.

If this were to happen in my thread. I might be tempted to exchange the picture with a steaming pile of cattle dung. That would be appropriate for what happened to that thread, and I think that stinks. But I'm one guy, who cares what I think.

Thanks for listening,Al

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Will_Heath

Excellent points Al and well said, they make some sense when explained in the manner presented.

Mike Page's thread was handled quite well, the discussion brought up by Brainbay9 about proper critique was moved to another thread and the actual critiques were left with the subject, as it should be.

I can't help but to notice that you have been bringing up The Art Of Bonsai Project quite a bit for use as examples lately. Comparing the two forums is akin to comparing apples to oranges, they are both different, they both serve different purposes, and they are both different forums, unrelated in many aspects.

AOB deals exclusively with the artistic aspects of bonsai and has set high standards for work submitted, discussions, and critiques. A sense of professionalism is not only asked for but is mandatory there. This outlook is called elitist by many but it serves the purpose of allowing educational artistic discussion to thrive without many of the usual setbacks. By the way, everything posted there is also open for critique.

For the record, the way we have the actual post separate from the discussion bugs me to no end, lol.

This forum on the other hand deals with all aspects of bonsai from beginner levels to Master levels. It's very nature dictates that informality be allowed and it serves it purpose quite well. In fact the way it is defines why it is the best bonsai forum for all levels of bonsaist.



Will Heath

bwaynef

It looks to me that you're saying, "As long as no one has anything negative to say then critiques are welcome." Either that or you've contradicted yourself by establishing in one place that you don't think its acceptable to critique the display in "Formal Displays" and then turning around and giving the sense that since "It stayed pretty calm" the critique you received was acceptable.

Enough debating whether we should critique trees in Formal Display. Someone give me the whys and wherefores of display.



Respectfully,
WF

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HB Smith

Please correct me if I am wrong, but Mike's thread originated in the "Show and Tell" Forum, then was moved to the new "Formal Display" forum.

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Sincerely,
Howard

www.BonsaiSmiths.net

bwaynef

And didn't the Formal Display forum USED to be in the Show & Tell forum?

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