A Forest Or An Incubator???

Jay

Like so many other Bonsaist on this list, I am thinking of the coming spring and my trees. I had an interesting thought as I considered possible new purchases. I am planning on starting a few more forest plantings with young stock.

I have heard of trees being removed from forests and being grown on as individual trees after several years. What are the thoughts of the group as to this method of growing? I do realize that in a forest the trees are trimmed a bit differently. Also, the trees in a forest pot will grow much slower than if they were placed in a grow box or the earth. Has anyone done this?

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
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ripsgreentree

I have just decided to tear apart a maple forrest that is second generation and I have had it for at least 10 years. This is what I am looking at. The largest trees will have to have the tops airlayered out of them and then the real drastic trunk chop to remove the long trunk that has develiped over many years of being shaded by a crown. What I am going to end up with is a very good root spread on a shohin tree that could have been develiped in a much shorter time in a growing box, the up side is that the trees in the forest will be saved. This may be the result of growing a forrest but I would not concider it a good technique for growing individual trees. Just some thoughts, over all, the age of these trees is probably 30 years with two owners. I will try to post some photos.

Glenn

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ripsgreentree

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Jay

Glenn, thanks for the thoughts. I am thinking more in the line of 5 to 15 years in the forest, it seems yours are more like 30. Plus, alas, you do have a much stronger and longer growing season than I. If that forest was here, in Orange County (NY) it would not be as grown-on as yours!

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

ripsgreentree

I think that the point that I was trying to make is that forest for having forest is ok but would be a poor way to start individual trees. This being my answer to your original question "forest or inqubator"

Glenn

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ripsgreentree

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Jay

Glenn,
After re-reading my original post to this thread I agree with your having answered it. I must admit that my mind was thinking a bit differently from what my fingers typed.

I will try and refine my thought. I am not suggesting that I will be growing a forest as only a beginning for single trees. The title was partially given to bring out thought and discussion.

I have seen forest plantings that have trees that have outgrown the group. The tree(s) in question has or probably will be removed from the group to keep the prospective of the forest. I would think the forest would have other trees added to it.

Not always are trees just added to a forest, or removed just because they are dead. These trees that are removed from these forests, are they more or less likely to be able to be grown on as individual trees?

If I am correct 'Goshin' was actually two groups that were merged. Forests need to be maintained and changed. They need to be pruned and chopped, etc.

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

ripsgreentree

Let's start with a bonsai (truth) "no Bonsai that is maintained in a healthy condition will remain the same" This applies to all stiles of Bonsai and species of tree or plant.
Now if you apply this truth to your forrest plantings then your assumption is correct that at some point in time the planting will be taken appart and trees removed and posibly other trees put into your planting.
Here are a couple of thoughts, when you are creating a forrest planting you will often use trees that are in some way deficent and unable to stand on there own, when placed in a forrest planting with the gaps facing inward the limbs that are left fill out the fullness of the planting. If you look closely at the forrest Goshen you will see that there are no limbs on the inward sides of the trees. If you were to see this planting close and in person you would see that not one of these trees would stand well on its own, but together in the group planting they create the wonderful allusion of a very old forrest.
Understanding this I would not maintain a forrest planting with the thought that it may produce a beautiful individual tree at some future time.

Glenn

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ripsgreentree

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TreeBay

Well, Glen, perhaps for some conifers you really need to concern yourself with branches, but most deciduous trees, one can't even think about growing the "final" branches until the trunk is about 2/3 its target size, otherwise they will look thick & clumsy, so I say, plant and enjoy you forests and take them apart when you have some trunks worth playing with!

Not everyone has a "back forty" to grow plants in, you know!

Regards,

Matt

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ripsgreentree

What's up? The fact that I have the ability to field grow trees does not influence the answer that I would give on this question. I was also not trying to diswade Jay from creating any forest plantings. We were discussing wheather or not a forest planting would be a good incubator for individual trees. I say no for these reasons.

1. The inside limbs will be shaded out making the trunks long and lanky with improper limb structure.
2. By the time you have develiped a decent nebari in a forest planting you could have develiped 3 good individual trees. With out a field.
3. When you create a forest planting you are usually starting with trees that have some deficency to begin with, these problems do not get better in a forest planting.

My point is this, if you want to create a good forest go ahead and do so. If you want good individual trees grow them in a good grow box with enough space around them to create good roots, nebari the trunk line that you choose and some limb structure. Why would you cause problems by sticking a good tree into a crowd of other trees?

Glenn

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ripsgreentree

It requires an open hand to give and to recieve.

Jay

Matt and Glenn, thanks for the input. I am not talking about a specific Forest, but forests in general. Just a different topic to discuss amongst us.

I have to agree that with conifers, it is unlikely that a tree will be able to be removed from a forest and turned into a single planting. But I agree with Matt, most deciduous trees need to develop their trunks before we can start with the branches. To remove a tree from a forest that has gotten to big, 'could' be a good candidate for a single tree. Yes, it would develop much better if started from the beginning on its own, but that is not what I was asking!

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing