A Few Monkeys

RonMartin(deceased)

I am not sure but I may have posted this before. If I have I hope you will forgive me. It is just a bit of food for thought.
*********************
Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the
cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of
stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the
stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as
he touches the stairs, spray all of the other monkeys
with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an
attempt with the same result - all the other monkeys are
sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, when another
monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will
try to prevent it.

Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the
cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees
the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his
surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack
him.
After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he
tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.
Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and
replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the
stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part
in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a
third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth,
then the fifth.

Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is
attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have
no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs
or why they are participating in the beating of the
newest monkey.

After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the
remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold
water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the
stairs to try for the banana.
Why not? Because as far as they know that's the way it's
always been done around here.

And that, my friends, is how bonsai seems to be done these days.
We read a book and decide that is the way it must be done. Climate
and specie of tree are constants. New York and New Orleans are the same.

Jin on a juniper looks good so it must be the same on a ficus. If one has aerial
roots on a ficus then they must be good on a juniper.

Poor draining, fine grained soil holds too much water due to the surface tension or
capillary action so the same must be true for a coarser soil. They are both soil so
they must work the same. We have read that this is true so it must be.

There is a definite one, two, three structure of branch placement. Definite rules of
bonsai styling. A height to girth ratio and a set amount of foliage depending on the
thickness of the branch.

Lots of rules but not much fun or imagination. Has bonsai become stagnant . Are we
like those Monkeys.

Or has just about every thing in bonsai already been done before. Like you were told in
school are we doomed just to continually repeat what historically already been done.

Have we been beat to death by convention or is there just so many ways to style a tree
and still make it look like a tree.

Sorry. These are just random thoughts of a weird puppy while enjoying a good glass of wine.
Even I am not sure I know what I am rambling on about.
Mind you this letter was supposed to start a dialog. Any comments

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diamondlyme84

I've heard the monkey story before...tis a humorous one!

I don't think that we're doomed to repeat everything ever again: the trees we train and take care of are after all trees--they grow, they die, they form and heal scars.

*post may have offended some...sorry*

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Carl_Bergstrom

Hi Ron,

You did post this one before...and it started a long thread that actually made it to the "Best of BonsaiTALK" list. Glad to see that our responses were so memorable.



I know better than to rise to this bait, but I think this is really a straw man. Can you name two or three artists whose trees do simply illustrate how well they can follow a list of guidelines?

Carl, aka Old Mister Crow

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RonMartin(deceased)

Wasn't sure if I did post it before but I did .Guess the subject has run its course then.
It was not really bait. Just hoping to start a conversation so to speak. Most of the time I do learn a lot from some of the responses.
As to a list of names I very seldom do that. Most of the time that leads to no good a place to be. Feelings usually get hurt that way.

ripsgreentree

Ron:
I do understand where you are comming from as I have had to sit in a club meeting and listen to the club Pres, put forth the politically correct techniques for dealing with plant material while totally ignoring the mud ball foundation that he is trying to shove into a bonsai container.

The situation is so bad that when we have outside masters come in to do work shops, they will not expose the roots of any plant material unless you ask them to. This includes Japanese masters.

So this lead's me to my question to you. You do work shops and teach people how to do Bonsai, do you start with the foundation? Do you make correct rootage first and then create the top of the tree? Or do you do like every other teacher that I have seen and just work on the top of a tree in your workshop and quietly ignore the foundation that your work is sitting on?

Please do not think that this is an attack on you it is not. It is a problem that I see all of the time. The excuse that I hear for not working on the rootage of the material is "the tree may die" and this is a true statement! But the truth that is never spoken is that at some point in time the rootage must be addresed and the older the plant material the more difficult and risky this operation becomes.

My own personal belief is that the sooner that plant material has the risky root work done the better chance for servival, also why put several years of work into the creation of a trees stile and branch structure only to see it die when the rootage is finally addresed.

I will be interested in hearing some of your thoughts on this.

Here is a question for everyone. Two trees with equal size age limb structure and trunk line. One shows exelent nebari and has correct rootage. The other has bad nebari and rootage. The master says that the tree with the correct nebari and rootage is four times as valuable as the one with out.

Is the increased value all visual asthetics because the nebari lends strength and stabalization to the work?

Is it because the correct rootage keeps the tree healthier and easier to care for?

Or is it a combination of the two?

Last, if the principal of rootage and value is correct, why do so few enthusiasts work toward a good root foundation.


Glenn

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ripsgreentree

It requires an open hand to give and to recieve.

RonMartin(deceased)

Not really a fair question.
At most of my workshops I supply the trees. That means that they are healthy trees. Given a healthy tree almost anything can be done.
That having been said I must also say the following.
It is IMHO never a good thing to style a tree and then immediately put it into a bonsai pot. Even when using a tropical tree one should wait at least 30 days between the two chores. Longer on other trees. Doing both at the same time puts an unnecessary strain on the tree and definitely retards the recovery process.
I have done both at the same time in a workshop but never by choice. And I have always warned them that it wasn't the best thing to do.
I would imagine everybody will have different thoughts on this but it is not the way I like to teach. I like to teach how to succeed in bonsai. One very seldom succeeds when the bonsai is pushed too hard.

RonMartin(deceased)

One more thing. A workshop only lasts 3-4 hours. Only so much can be done in that time.

TreeBay

Hi Rips,

I understand your concern for roots, but you need to take a look at the skills that a new bonsai person has at their disposal.

I think the sooner a new enthusiast busts open a rootball, the sooner he loses the tree. Take a look at the posts and problems that folks here have had with trees. We have location problems, watering problems, soil problems, insect problems.

IMHO, the foundation of bonsai is the understanding of the primary trunk styles. Good roots are important but dead trees with good roots aren't worth anything.

Now drop that banana and get off the stairs!

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RonMartin(deceased)

A good tree with dead roots isn't much good either ;o)
Truth be known all aspects of bonsai are important. But they must be learned in a structured and meaningful way.
I do guess that learning what a bonsai actually is would be a good place to start. Then comes what it needs to stay alive. Then onto the next step what ever that is