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19-Mar-2008
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#11 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Chief
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Walmart is not the problem. We raise and grow chickens for one purpose on a large scale....to be consumed. Walmart buys plants for bonsai that are raised for one purpose...to be enjoyed at home as bonsai. Walmart would be taking a huge risk selling collected plants out of the wild. Their exposure is huge and I am sure they cover their bases.
The argument that we only collect dwarf muted trees and leave the robust is going to hold water like a colander. Now look at these two pictures with an unbiased understanding of the true sense of a tree growing in its environment. Which pic does your heart give the most significance to..... Last edited by kingkong : 19-Mar-2008 at 01:59 PM. |
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Ethics of yamadori. |
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Forum Sponsor
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19-Mar-2008
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#12 |
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bonsaiTALK Adept
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There's a tough, stunted little pine in the woods near my house that I'll probably try to collect in the future. It's growing at the top of a severely eroded red dirt bluff. I've been running past it most days for a couple of years and judging by what I've seen the lip it's hanging onto will collapse soon. The erosion has sped up lately, mainly due I believe to increased kids-on-bikes traffic. All the supporting grass and scrub growth is gone.
I like to think of it as a rescue vice collection. What's the group here think? Am I rationalizing the decision to collect a great tree through self-indulgent sophistry? All opinions are welcome.  |
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19-Mar-2008
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#13 |
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Trunk Collector
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Ten minutes from my house I can take a hike and see thousands of "natural bonsai", georgeous, twisted little Ponderosa pines growing on granite outcroppings. The area is a park, and as such off limits for collecting. But even if it were allowed, only one in a hundred, or maybe one in a thousand of these trees are collectable. The rest would have to be removed with dynamite.
I have no problem with responsible collecting - collecting only trees that can survive the process, only with permission, filling holes when done. At least around here, if done responsibly, collecting will have a minimal impact on the landscape. Most parts of the forest where collecting is allowed, are scheduled for logging in the near future. Given the scale of the national forests, I think you could line up ALL the yamadori collectors in the US and turn them loose on permitted collecting areas without seeing any impact - assuming we all practice responsible collecting. Brian
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There's a difference between taking your art seriously, and taking yourself too seriously. |
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19-Mar-2008
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#14 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Chief
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Great question. Load your cooler with refreshments and go sit there on biker day and show those pups how they are turning your favorite spot into a wasteland. If they think you are nuts then show them that pine that refuses to give up and tell those piston-heads you are going to be just as tough. The first one that grins, grab his bike and twist his handle bar into a figure 8 then pop a cold one. That little tree will thank you for your effort.
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19-Mar-2008
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#15 |
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bonsaiTALK Adept
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I believe all good bonsai collectors are responsible people that care about and respect their environment (or they should be!). This excludes people going out to get trees to sell, who only care about making a "buck."
Here's a thought. Plant two trees for every one you take. Or do something good for the environment that would offset you taking out one small tree. I don't believe that we (the average bonsai collector) are really making a huge difference by removing a tree or two from the wild. We keep it alive, or at least try, so it still recycles carbon dioxide (maybe a little less because of pruning). Anyway, if you take a tree responsibly and legally (not from a protected forest or someone's land) I don't see any problem with that. Bonsai makes you appreciate trees and nature more so I believe it's a good thing. |
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19-Mar-2008
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#16 |
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Bonsai Instigator
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There is an old thread/ poll called "stealing trees" which has quite a lengthy discussion on the ethics of collecting trees from nature. If you have the time, take a look and see what others have already said. In my opinion, it doesn't really clarify anything one way or the other but it will show how others feel.
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"I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid, and... I went ahead anyway" Crow T. Robot, MST3K |
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20-Mar-2008
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#17 |
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Bonsai Master, in my mind
Join Date: Feb-2005
Location: Back Home in Northern California
Country: USA
Posts: 2,092
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G'day friends...
Lots of good comments...pro...con... I'm OK with collecting, as long as it is accomplished with all due diligence...how to dig...transport...after care...permits...legal issues...and more... "...if there is any questions if the tree will live or not then it should not be taken...". Good thought, howsomeever, you can never remove that "question" intirely. "...think of it as a rescue...". Resque indeed. But, that doesn't relieve you of the permit/permission requirement. It's all been said before...here and/or elsewhere. So...whomsoever digeth without total due diligence... May all your bonsai die... Pat
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BONSAI isn't about surviving in a storm, rather, how to dance in the rain. THE ONLY WAY: Always remember, and don't ever forget, that whatever you read here is not cast in concrete... the intent of any advice is to help. In no way should you feel that I’m saying that my way is the only way…heaven forbid! I've seen far too much of the "my way or the highway" attitude in bonsai as well as in other areas of life. Pat Patterson...Bonsai in the Greater Bay Area, Northern California
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20-Mar-2008
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#18 |
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redhawk 18-Mar-2004
Join Date: Feb-2007
Location: 3rd coast @ the "Coastal Bend"
Country: USA
USDA Zone: 9a
AHS Heat Zone: 11
Posts: 216
 
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I have a bonsai buddy that works for an oilfield co (Yep, everybody in Texas owns an oil well…NOT! Lol) and before the drilling starts, they get a "pad" (an area where the drilling takes place) ready by bulldozing everything over, he goes collecting with the backhoe/bulldozer before they start. We call it "Backhoe Bonsai". One year our whole club went "Backhoe Bonsai-ing". So, in a since he/we are saving the environment by saving the trees.
Ok not comments about fossil fuels unless you do not use them! redhawk
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20-Mar-2008
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#19 | |
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bonsaiTALK Adept
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Quote:
Of course not, one of the last things I want is to be a tree thief. |
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21-Mar-2008
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#20 |
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bonsaiTALK Journeyman
Join Date: Jan-2008
Location: Pleasanton
Country: USA
Posts: 11
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Guilty as charged...
I collect junipers. Old ones. From the high desert where they have grown for 100's of years. So I guess I am guilty of crimes of nature. Yes?
Well that depends on your perspective. The area I have collected is on private property. The land owner has graciously allowed a select group full access once a year to collect, and believe it or not, they have never set a limit on the number of trees a person can collect. I can take as many California Junipers as I can dig in a day. A ripe situation for abuse most would think, that is until the reality of the situation is considered. You see, not many are really bonsai material. Not only that, it turns out that despite an open invitation, there are really only a handful of folks that are actually fit enough, or interested enough to actually dig a tree. As a relatively fit 40ish guy, I have taken 2 trees a year for five years. A whopping 10 trees. At this rate, I might take 10 or 20 more trees in my entire life. I have a few pretty trees as a result, some that managed to live 350 years in a harsh desert evironment before I showed up -you really have to admire their tenacity. My survival rate has been about 90%. Of course, that means I killed 10% of the trees I collected. I feel bad when I kill any tree, more so when I kill an old tree. These beautiful trees are actually quite abundant, are not threatend, and cover hunderds of square miles of land. Our take is very limited and the true impact is virtually non existent. Luckily, there are pristine area's that will be protected forever. In the meantime, if a handful of guys collect a few common trees a year from a remote canyon somewhere in the middle of nowhere we should not instantly condem their behaivor. Currently, I am in the process of obtaining a permit to collect Utah Juniper from the high dessert of Nevada. And as I slowly grind thru the approval process to obtain permission to collect a couple of trees from a 20 square mile stand of trees, I can see on Google earth the encroachment of houses into this same wilderness. And the area I will dig in? It has just been cleared for cutting firewood. Yep, the same trees some will condem me for carefully collecting will be used to make a pretty fire. Go figure... Tread lightly folks. |
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