Danger- Misinformation

Jay

Al.....THANK YOU!!!

Jay

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

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Will_Heath

Al,

You never cease to amaze me with the lengths you will go...

I carefully described why I collect the plants with the tree and my reasoning behind it. Do you think instead of blowing smoke that you could describe in detail why you say that this is dangerous? You attacked one technique in a article with obvious intent to defame yet offered no reason why you claimed it was dangerous. Surely someone with you knowledge can give specifics?

Please show me other young Pines with the fissured, cracked and lichen covered bark that these trees have. You claim that I collect younger material which is true if you consider 30 - 50 year old trees as young. They are not 150 - 200 year old trees for sure but they are a far cry from seedlings or what is available at any nurseries.

For the record, Jack Pines grow in the worst, sandiest, soil you can imagine. They are quite famous for growing where other trees will not. It is difficult to keep the root ball intact and takes a great deal of prep which I have covered in other articles.

I am sure that collecting in your beautiful state is quite different than collecting in Michigan. I am also sure that watering, feeding, soil mixtures, and many other things are quite different also. I am also sure that because you collect in the desert using different techniques that they are not automatically wrong.

I will continue to write about what I know which is collecting here in Michigan, Zone 5/6. To do other wise would be truly blowing smoke.

Instead of simply saying that a technique is wrong and dangerous maybe it would have been better to say, yes but it will not work in my desert climate due to the following reasons and then give suggestions for that climate?

You also mention "hurricane" styling..these trees are unstyled Al, as the articles states. They are potted as they were found growing.

How'd you like the rest of the article Al?

For those of you who would like to read the article referenced, you can find it here.


Will

John Dixon

Al,

Does this mean I can look forward to more kind words from you about my inability to make good bonsai? Gee, I can't wait.

In retrospect, I find it difficult to believe that someone with such tumultuous fervor about bonsai styling would not have an inherent interest in storm/hurricane-ravaged trees as a basis for bonsai design. Alas, such must be the case. Sure like those California Junipers though, huh? Maybe that's the problem. Do ya'll Californians call 'em hurricanes? Are they typhoons since ya'll have the Pacific Ocean? I can't remember.

Typhoonagashi- hey maybe that's the name of the style we are looking for!!!

TyphoonAl- I like it, and it's appropriate

Nothing but love for you brother..... nothing but love,

John

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John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Bone-sigh

Oh really....still waiting for your rant....
AND looking forward to it. I can't wait to see why the effects of hurricanes is so illegitimate compared to the effects of the desert on your prized Cali junipers...I guess all those buttonwoods we have here in florida that are shaped by the tides...and even yes...you guessed it...HURRICANES don't count as bonsai....
I can't wait for you to amaze me Al!

Tounge in cheek
Ryan

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"If God meant for us to run around naked, we would have been born that way!"

----a Quote from my uncle's fridge

rockm

I think Al has a point. Taking the article at face value COULD cost you. It could also inform you. It all comes down to the reader actually thinking about the underlying idea of what's being discussed, applying the technique intelligently and not applying it universally.

I read Will's article and thought "I never do any of that, but I know some people that do." While leaving a "microclimate" on a collected pine may help the tree recover, it can kill a decidous tree--or some conifers--at least that's been my experience. I see people that have collected HUUUUGE rootballs on trees and left the dirt on them. Those trees died as the "microclimate" turned into a "microbog" and suffocated the roots in the container over a period of years.

On the other hand, the "microclimate" thing is really about not disturbing the rootball too much, which some pines appreciate. Bare rooting the majorit of pine species at collection will kill them for the most part. I bareroot older deciduous trees at collection--hornbeam, black cherry, and some others. I don't bareroot other trees, like American Beech, which aren't quite as vigorous.

All of this depends largely on local conditions, species, health of the tree and experience of the collector. Articles like this can help, but applying them by rote in all situations (which I don't think Will recommended) might be a little problematic.

As for hurricane styled trees, it is a bit hit and miss. The Bradford pears that were "styled" by Hurricane Isabel here a couple of years ago are pretty unsightly, like upturned, mutilated octopuses only three arms left. Ick.

RonMartin(deceased)

John Dixon

Joanie commented earlier about a "warning" on toothpicks that they can cause eye injury. It seems we expect a disclaimer on everything, as she so eliquently pointed out (an accidental pun there). Well, I'm sorry, but if someone posts on a subject and YOU (meaning the reader) take that information as gospel, without considering the totality of the circumstances, and the inherent differences between regions....well...you're an idiot. Period.

It's YOUR responsibilty to decide if information is relevant or even tangibly important, not the writer. I agree that anyone posting should have the moral fortitude to ensure their own remarks are as accurate as possible, but anyone using that information has implied a conscience choice whether to use the information or discard it. Don't hang your failures on others because YOU didn't do your part. It's called maturity, practice it.

Coming off my soap box now (and going to work),

John

__________________
John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Will_Heath

Thank you for the intelligent insight and discussion, these kind of comments are what makes a forum great.

You are absolutely right, I should have included a disclaimer stating that the techniques described works well in my climate and growing zone on Scot Pine, Jack Pine, White Pine, Red Pine, and Hemlocks. However I would not use the same techniques on deciduous trees here as I often bare root them.

I also can not speak toward desert collecting, mountain collecting, or tropical collecting as I have zero experience in those climates and areas.

I do however still stand by the thoughts of a tree seeking it's own balance and I can not see why this principle would be different anywhere. In fact I will post some further thoughts on this today.

As to the hurricane styled trees...for the last time, these Jacks are not "styled" yet. They have had no branches removed, no wire attached, and are potted at the same angle they were growing on. As far as I know, Michigan has never had a hurricane.

Again, thanks.


Will Heath

rockm

Ron,

"Seems to me that the reader is never given credit for having a brain. Not by the author but by the critics of the article
I would venture to say that almost everyone with an IQ high enough to measure would know that almost every written word will have to be modified to suit local conditions. There are climatic conditions that differ, seasonal differences and a whole host of other things to consider. Not every contingency can be covered in an article, a book or even an encyclopedia.
Most people can figure it out and modify the information to suit local conditions"

You have to keep in mind who's the most likely reader of articles like this. It's probably someone just learning, or thinking about learning, how to collect. These can be folks who are also just learning they can't keep temperate species indoors, can't use cat litter for soil, shouldnt' water every 6 hours, etc. They're at the beginning of a steep learning curve and are looking for set procedures to conquer that curve. They aren't yet aware that there are many ways to do it.

Doesn't mean they're stupid. Far from it. It means they're learning. Some don't know enough to ask the right questions about why something is done, they're just after the nuts and bolts of "how to do it." Which is why you see requests for soil recipes, etc. most of those requests don't ask about local conditions or even know it's an issue. SOme even use Superthrive

Collection also has a mysterious side too. People just starting out in collection are looking to maximize the survivability of the plant they just spent hours digging up and will try alot of stuff unobjectively and at fce value, since their experience with the vagaries of collecting trees isn't extensive--See Superthrive comment above.