cruelty to trees

denny

this post came up at the garden club.
im interested in what you all think.

Subject: Cruelty to Trees


Author:
Maggie
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Date Posted: 20:40:38 02/03/02 Sun

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I was given a book on bonsai trees for Christmas; I got time to look today; I remember again why I don't like it; to me it is symbolic of so much that is wrong with humanity; now finding an old tree in the wild, well, I suppose that would be o.k., though why uproot it for one's own satisfaction? But the chopping and pruning and wiring and placing in tiny pots - even the tearing of pieces of the trunk to look like storm or other damage - that I cannot condone! All this is done in the name of so-called aesthetics - what is beautiful about a tortured tree squeezed into a small pot, so much so that it needs watering every day, there is so little soil to sustain life? It tells me a lot about us as human beings, that this 'art' is considered beautiful!

__________________
Denny
Still Growing in zone 9
So.Cal.

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eric

You might wonder if she eats any veggies....

I for instance lost the appetite of meat... I just love animals and don't like the way they (cows and pig) are butchered here in Holland. But the same happens with fish - grown in big containers and constantly fed with hormones and antibiotics.
Life sucks...
Everybody is allowed his or her opion though.
Regards
Eric

Literati

This person needs to ask themselves a few questions;
1. Do you mow your yard? - think about that one for more than 1/2 a second.....
2. Do you trim your bushes in your front yard? Same idea
3. Do you have pets? along your lines of thinking you are confining them to a life in prison ie. they are not free to run outside and be free as they would in their natural habitat.


I wouldn't expect someone with that attitude to understand the time and love that is given to our trees. If you look at the world with such a negative view, everything can be seen as bad. Just something to think about - Bonsai trees get more love and attention than full grown trees and can live longer because they do not reach the full height that their roots can support and die.

erubeck

I could write several paragraphs about the comments on "cruelty" to trees but the idea is so rediculous they are better off not written at all!

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Regards,

Ed

bonsaial1

This person probably thinks the Taliban are being mistreated in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba too.

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A tree a day...thats all we ask.

Tony

Maggie is probably a wana be psychiatrist. She is trying to find the "deeper meaning" behind all this tree torture and will never accept the fact that trees can be perfectly healthy in little pots when given the right care. I suspect many years of reading greenpeace literature has warped her mind.

Tony

Rene_Voortwist

OK, so we know she's wrong, but I can understand that someone who sees the styling of a tree for the first time thinks like this. I mean, suppose you've never seen any styling before and then you are confronted with someone cutting roots and branches, putting wire around a branch and bend until it just doesn't break, stripping the bark of a poor little plant. It must make some impression don't you think ? I think we are better off educating people like Maggie, then saying it's bad attitude. If she would know the background she might have a different opinion, and spread it around instead of this. Just my opinion...

René

Maggie

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Well, Denny, thanks for that - they seemed to get a bit upset, didn't they? You can tell them that since grass can regenerate after mowing or animals grazing it, that's ok with me. I am a vegetarian, and I do eat vegetables - but if vegetables mean the same as trees to you, why don't you have bonsai cabbages and carrots in pots? I either eat vegetables which have adapted for being grazed, or root vegetables which have been detached from the soil. I don't tear strips off living trees to make them look better from my point of view - I rarely prune my trees or hedges, certainly never hard-prune them. I also differentiate between taking what we need from plants for nutrition, and for more frivolous purposes. I feel such things as wires and tiny pots have no place in the lives of noble trees. If you keep a pot-plant, which would have probably the same amount of space as you have allotted it, were it competing with other vegetation in the garden, that's one thing; but to compress and cramp the wide-ranging roots of a perhaps 100 foot tree, that is akin to keeping an elephant in a rabbit-hutch. Remember when Chinese women had their feet bound for aesthetic reasons? They were fed and sheltered too and lived a so-called normal life - because they didn't die of this treatment is not to say they didn't suffer!
The remarks re. the Taliban prisoners, Greenpeace, etc. well, they just show me where you're coming from! Sorry, folks - just because you want to do it, doesn't make it right ! You could just be completely lacking in pity, of course - in which case, may God have mercy on you!


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TreeBay

The original post, (which I might paraphrase as a concern about trees in the wild being collected) certainly had merit, but this second one has completely thrown me for a loop. In brief, I think the author took a big jump in applying the same standards. Apparently there is an issue now with applying general horticultural practices and practicing bonsai in general!

> Well, Denny, thanks for that - they seemed to get a bit
> upset, didn't they?

Of course we did. You made an allegation that bonsai keeping is cruel. Almost no one likes to be called cruel, and it's hard not to take it personally.


> You can tell them that since grass can regenerate after
> mowing or animals grazing it, that's ok with me.

Trees and shrubs regenerate leaves, limbs, branches, roots, and entire trunks after pruning. That means it's okay?

> I am a vegetarian, and I do eat vegetables

Do you kill them first, or do you eat them while they are still screaming? You have me wondering now: how you would react if you received a dozen roses on your birthday?

> but if vegetables mean the same as trees to you, why don't
> you have bonsai cabbages and carrots in pots?

I don't understand the analogy. I enjoy and grow trees, but I don't think they are any more environmentally significant as a group than kelp and algae, or grasses like bamboo or wheat.

As a matter of fact, we do have edible plants as bonsai, usually herbs like sage, rosemary and thyme. The practice of bonsai takes time, so we tend to use woody plants, which are long lived, although certain plants like Chrysanthemum are developed entirely in one season. As to the question of bonsai cabbage, carrot or turnip, the size of fruit and flower is determined by genetics.

I do have quite a few friends that grow strawberries, herbs, radishes and even carrots in container gardens because they don't have space available in the ground. Are you saying that is wrong, too? Do you think raised growing beds are more ethical than container gardening?

> I either eat vegetables which have adapted for being
> grazed,

Adapted by whom? Are apples evil? Grafted lemon? Do you know how many hardworking lemon roots go through their lives with absolutely no idea they are nurturing orange trees. Is that wrong?

> or root vegetables which have been detached from the soil.

I don't understand. Is eating the stalk of the plant, like celery more wrong? Or just the roots?

> I don't tear strips off living trees to make them look better
> from my point of view

Do you pull weeds in your garden, and if you do, do you replant them elsewhere so they can reach their full genetic potential? If you don't cut living trees, how do you explain your next sentence, and why do you prune your plants at all then, if not to make the look better or healthier?

> I rarely prune my trees or hedges, certainly never hard-
> prune them.

Unless you have a lot of voracious deer where you live, your hedges would probably do a lot better if they were regularly pruned. They are adapted to that, and it lets in light and ventilation. Occasional, hard pruning restores vigor in a lot of plants.

> I also differentiate between taking what we need from
> plants for nutrition, and for more frivolous purposes.
> I feel such things as wires and tiny pots have no place in the
> lives of noble trees.

Much of the "nobility" you are responding to in the photo of a bonsai plant was released with wire and shears. A plant of the same age planted in the ground would often be a 6-12 foot tall bush with no character whatsoever. Nobility is a human trait and to infer it on a plant is anthropomorphism.

> If you keep a pot-plant, which would have probably the
> same amount of space as you have allotted it, were it
> competing with other vegetation in the garden, that's one
> thing; but to compress and cramp the wide-ranging roots of
>a perhaps 100 foot tree, that is akin to keeping an elephant
> in a rabbit-hutch.

If we were to release all our bonsai into our yards and the yards of most of our neighbors few would have the potential of becoming mature trees. Their demand on their environment in terms of space for photosynthesis, competition for water and minerals means that most of them would die.

Not every tree has the potential to reach 100 feet. Over its lifetime, a tree casts hundreds of thousands, perhaps, millions of seeds. The natural balance is maintained if perhaps a handful of those seeds fall in fertile soil, if a dozen germinate, if one grows to maturity.

Many bonsai artists propagate seeds and cuttings for the purpose of practicing their art. These are plants that would never have been grown otherwise.

> Remember when Chinese women had their feet bound for
> aesthetic reasons? They were fed and sheltered too and
> lived a so-called normal life - because they didn't die of this
> treatment is not to say they didn't suffer!

I'm sorry. Plants don't suffer. They don't have free will. They don't have a nervous system. I think you are beginning to get into a really weird area at this point.

Footbinding was outlawed when the Manchu dynasty was toppled in 1911, so I don't remember it very well. In any case, tree branches aren't wrapped with wire to keep them small. I think your ignorance is showing.

> The remarks re. the Taliban prisoners, Greenpeace, etc.
> well, they just show me where you're coming from!

Where's that?

> Sorry, folks - just because you want to do it, doesn't make
> it right ! You could just be completely lacking in pity, of
> course - in which case, may God have mercy on you!

Bonsai is a hobby enjoyed by millions of peace- and nature-loving individuals the world over. I think that makes it right. I guess that either means I am cruel or you are ignorant.

Regards,

Matt

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