CLOSED: Rustic Bonsai

Attila

Very good and realistic points, Joanie.

A while ago Walter brought up a comparison with playing tennis at an amateur level. Of course, the person in question would love to play better if he could, but he knows he never will, and still enjoying the game at his own pace. No intention of taking more classes, or making a great effort to improve. He just gets out and has some fun.

As Woody Allen said it, bonsai is like everything else in life.

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Will_Heath

My point Joanie, is that everytime they wire, trim, or prune, they are in fact continuing on the path. To do otherwise would require just letting the tree become a container plant.


Will

agraham

Will,

I would disagree with your counterpoint only because while more artistic and better bonsai may be your goal and my goal......it is not necessarily everyone's goal.

Rockm,

It doesn't really matter whether they have tried to improve their understanding of bonsai or not(though i would say they have)...the point is,they may not take it as seriously as you or i do,nor put in as much time as you or i may......but they enjoy their trees as they are,as do I.

Mike,

It seems that this is a common occurance.

andy

Cre8tive

Fred,

I think you have every right to your approach. I am not sure who it is that would legitimize an approach to bonsai and don't think it is something that needs legitimizing. How someone approaches something is a personal matter in my opinion. I think you are practicing bonsai, trees in pots, at a level that is satisfactory to you and that you enjoy. Why someone would feel the need to convince you that your approach is incorrect is beyond me no matter what level of proficiency you wish to ultimately achieve.

Regards,
Mark

__________________
ART - An object or event that evokes an aesthetic reaction—a sense of beauty, appreciation, harmony, and/or pleasure; the quality, production, expression, or realm of what is beautiful or of more than ordinary significance; the class of objects subject to aesthetic criteria

Will_Heath

Then why trim, wire, shape, prune, jin, and style?


Will

Cre8tive

Why must someone beleive what you beleive to be able to find enjoyment in the various task you listed?

__________________
ART - An object or event that evokes an aesthetic reaction—a sense of beauty, appreciation, harmony, and/or pleasure; the quality, production, expression, or realm of what is beautiful or of more than ordinary significance; the class of objects subject to aesthetic criteria

Joanie

And indeed, my only quibble is that just because they wire, trim, or prune, does not mean that they will continue to refine their techniques or their trees. If their skill is enough to satisfy their personal muse, they may never seek farther. Like the above mentioned tennis players, they find their level. Doesn't mean that they stop playing tennis (my hubby is a very good amateur tennis player), but as long as they know how to serve, return, backhand, etc. and can play a good game amongst their friends they are quite happy.

Here's a question...how many people in your clubs or on this forum take "Bonsai Today"? If they are driven to learn, passionate about improving, they will sooner or later subscribe. How many take personal classes? How many travel a long way to attend seminars or digs? How many do all of the above? I would venture to say, not even half the people on this forum have pursued every pathway vigorously. For a myriad of reasons. It is simply a matter of intensity and personal considerations.

But to name the less refined trees, and give them equal consideration just because they exist and make people happy.....no. You can acknowledge that there is a large group of people who derive pleasure from puttering with their trees, or their weekend tennis for that matter, but that does not make them a seperate category or style.

It would amuse hubby to tell him that he plays "Rustic Tennis"

Joanie

Will_Heath

Creative,

I am simply saying that if you consciously attempt to improve your tree by styling it toward an artistic end, you are practicing the same bonsai that I am. Sure, some will be better at it, some will have more talent for it, but the undeniable truth of the matter is that we are all on the same path to creating artistic bonsai.

There are still people who honestly believe the world is flat. They don't need to believe what I do (that it is round) but the truth doesn't change.

Let's try and define the debate here:

Does anyone disagree that by styling your trees, you are attempting to improve them in order to make them more visually pleasing to the eye?

Does anyone disagree that by using wire, trimming, clipping, needle plucking, candle trimming, trunk chopping, or the like, you are in fact styling the tree?

Does anyone disagree that we all want better bonsai and not simply sticks in a pot? That we want more than mallsai?

Does anyone that uses this forum come here not to learn and better their skills?

I think that unless you disagree with the above comments, we are actually talking about the same thing, the goal is better bonsai.


Will

ripssurf

one of the things that gets me about the "bonsai class" in general is the need to legitimize opur hobby and/or personal trees. bonsai is what it is. bonsai is bonsai. nothing more and nothing less. bonsai is the placement of trees in a container. some might take this definition further and say that an artisitic approach is needed. i do not deny this; neither do i accept this.

what i mean is this, bonsai, being the simple act that it is, is man-made and artificial. man has made very few things (outside of certain strip-malls and apartment buildings in tokyo) without and eye towards an aesthetically pleasing result.

i have a lot i want to say about this topic because i feel like recently some of the people on this board (thanks will, fred, joanie, rockm, bonsaikc, bonsaial, omc, charles, pootsie, attila, and many others (cr8tive, rockm,...)) have helped me realize some things. ill end this post though with an example, and hope that it makes sense.

one of my best friends in tokyo is/was a guy named jay. jay is from texas and jay loved jujitsu and judo. what made his study so interesting was that jay did not study these artforms in order to kick butt. jay studied judo and was fascinated by how practicing and learning according to the meaning of judp (ju means weak and do means road/path of. hence, judo means that path of weakness) can make one more powerful than becoming a bulwark of strength. jay got whipped. every day, his face was shoved in smellier places that i would ever want to be. jay rose through the ranks, though, faster than any of the other students there. of all the people i have ever known, i have never known a person with more inner-strength than jay. i think it came from his desire to learn how one can become strong by first becoming weak. jay gained a great insight into conflict not by becoming stronger, but by finding his own path and realizing that, oftentimes, one must accept the path for what it is: a path towards greater understanding.

rustic bonsai is a point down the path towards greater understanding. i dont think it is the final point along the path, but it is down the path. it is sort of a road marker as will stated earlier. it is not a final destination. however in the great tradition of many japanese who "retired" from society during the prior to the heian period and after it, there is worth in the study of something, be it poetry, bonsai, or painting, by one's self. it is a reward in and of itself. it is a worthy pursuit whether or not one has the ability to improve or simply chooses to maintain that station in life.

jeff