Breaking the Rules

RedPine

Hi John,

I can only assume people are getting tired of seeing this old hat.But here is a pic taken in August of the tree of mine I was talking about although it is in a grow box with an unfinished canopy.I would give you a real time pic but a couple weeks back I had a little watering issue with it after defoliation,so it's a little naked but recovering. But I don't see how it really follows any of the rules at hand.

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bwaynef

http://walter-pall.de/laubbbfortg.htm

Those trees abide by most of the "rules" of bonsai. I'm sure you can pick out a few instances that don't follow the rules, but generally those rules can be applied to the trees presented. Most of those trees look distinctly deciduous in their styling as well.

RedPine

Bwaynef,

Those trees break just many of the old rules. I don't see any places for the birds to fly through,pads or really any sharply angled down branches following the 123 rule,some don't have the apex over the trunk base either.

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John Dixon

RedPine,

I congratulate you on having the integrity to follow through. First off, let me say it is a very pleasing banyan-style composition. It is a bonsai to have pride in. Keep up the good work.

Two "rules" are immediate though. There is a distinct triangular silhouette, and the apex is directly above the base. Both are, without question, "rules" in the spirit of this discussion.

The triangle is not necessary in the design, but it looks fine. The apex coming over the base isn't always needed, but in MOST cases of [loosely-used] informal bonsai, such an arrangement maintains a balance and in this specific case it is particularly well-suited.

Thank you for the picture. It adds so much to the discussion.

Warmest regards,

John

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Ralph

"Pesky scalene triangle" , ain't dat in dem thar rule thingies? And all by accident of nature too!

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grampz

But, perhaps if you worked the tree so that it did follow the 'rules at hand' it would be much better accepted by those that have spent many years learning the 'rules at hand'...The tree may or may not be more pleasing to you, only you will be able to determine that...I don't like it as you know, and wouldn't care for it if you changed it according to the 'rules at hand'...But I just am not very fond of scheffleras...Does any of these things make it not a good tree?...I really don't think so...

Regards
Behr

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RedPine

Like I said John the canopy is unfinished,there won't be a triagle in the end unless completly rounded with some flaws counts as a triangle.

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agraham

Wes,

You are missing the point.The "rules" are broken all the time.They are guidelines to help,not "rules" to bind.To throw them away without knowing them is to handicap yourself.I don't think you have done that...you know the "rules" and you use them....and you break them when it serves your purpose....but you don't break them just because they are "rules".Atleast I hope you don't.With very few exceptions and offhand I can only think of one who has expressed(in this thread) the idea that you can not create a bonsai masterpiece unless you follow the "rules".(I'll get to that later )

I'm still trying to figure out whether crossing branches or bar branches or parallel branches on the same side of the trunk bother me because they break some kind of inherent RULE of artistic design....or whether it is because I have been taught that these design "flaws" are breaking the "rules" of bonsai.I don't know the answer...but they do bother me.

Btw,Wes,....I'm guessing that our most accomplished member that you refer to would be Walter.I can remember posting a tree to the ATM which he ripped partly because it was a crappy tree,but the comment which stuck out the most was that because it was a tropical tree...it should be wider than tall....isn't this a "rule"?

Will,

You're kidding me right?.....WILL WROTE>>>>"I'll repeat my challenge I made a few posts ago. Post a world class bonsai and let us see if breaks any "rules." In other words, show me a single quality bonsai that does not follow the "rules" in all cases."

Either I completely misunderstand what you are saying,or that is the most off the wall remark yet on this thread.Or,maybe we are talking about different "rules".The easiest place or maybe most familiar and obvious place to see examples of world class bonsai breaking rules would be Walter Pall's website.I would imagine that there are examples of "rule" breaking masterpieces in many worldclass collections.

andy

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agraham

Wes,

but it does follow "rules"....if you take out the alternating branches it doesn't look as good,or as balanced.

and,although it's hard to tell in 2-D..a back branch might improve it.

I have to say....it's looking dang good though .....but it DOES follow rules...and if you extend the canopy and make it wider...it will soon be following the "rules" for tropical trees .

andy

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