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| View Poll Results: How long into bonsai before you can start breaking rules? | |||
| Never learn the rules |
  
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17 | 23.61% |
| One month |
  
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10 | 13.89% |
| One year |
  
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12 | 16.67% |
| One decade |
  
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11 | 15.28% |
| When my teacher tells me |
  
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4 | 5.56% |
| Never |
  
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18 | 25.00% |
| Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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19-Oct-2005
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#31 |
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Boonified
 
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As far as rules, I would interpret this as implying artistic principles in which case I vote never. This does not mean never have eye poking branches, or bar branches, or reverse taper, etc... Never means use what the tree provides in an artistically sound fashion.
Different species have different feels. This is translated in how we design the branches and pick the trunk. Conifers often have hanging branches that bend downward from snow with foliage growing upward. Deciduous trees have more sinuous movement in a general upward direction. Broadleaf evergreens like oaks will have more weighty, downward hanging branches than deciduous trees. White pine and Jap maples will have a more feminine feel than black pine and tridents, etc...
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Sincerely, Howard www.BonsaiSmiths.net |
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Breaking the Rules |
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19-Oct-2005
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#32 | |
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Bonsai Farmer
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Quote:
I agree. Some amazing innovations in bonsai began first by breaking the "rules," as they were perceived. Look close at these "rule-breaking" trees and you'll still find elements of the "rules," judiciously applied by the individual. "Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly." -The Dalai Lama Breaking the rules acknowledges an understanding of the rules. Applying the rules at your discretion isn't necessarily breaking the rules/guidelines/whatnot. Break the rules and you may find yourself a pioneer. Ignore the rules entirely and you may end up with trees "only a mother could love." -Wendy |
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19-Oct-2005
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#33 |
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Personal observations....
I would add "When I fully understand them in every way" to the poll. Why is it that the least experienced seem to be the biggest opponents of the "rules" and the more experienced one is, the weaker the outbrust? Seriously, is it not wise for everyone to be well versed in the traditional rules before they decide to go out and reinvent bonsai? Think about it, before a doctor can come up with a better way to do a heart transplant, wouldn't it be wise to be very experienced with the traditional methods and the whys first? Can a person design a better internal combustion engine without understanding exactly how the current engines work? Can a person who has never created a world class bonsai tell me that following the rules is a waste of time? These rules are a good foundation for anyone and I would venture that every major talent in the world was first well grounded with them before they ventured out. I would also venture that even those who have ventured out did not sway too far from the traditional "rules" to do so. When we study and apply the rules, we build a good solid, strong foundation to build on and let's face it, doing so will allow us to create good bonsai without making all the same mistakes that were made a million times in order for these "rules" to make sense. More guidelines than actual rules, they serve a good purpose, like it or not inverse taper, bar branches, improper branch placement, etc do distract from the bonsai more often than not. Sure there are exceptions as with all "rules" but those are few and far between. There are a very select few who have the talent to ignore the rules or should we say, bend them, with excellent results. Mainly this is because of a strong traditional foundation inbuilt and mixed with exceptional talent. We must also remember that some rules are there for the trees health and survival such as branch length and placement, roots go down, etc. Here's a challenge, why not post some world class bonsai here and we can see how many "rules" were actually broken, if any? My 1/2 cent, Will Last edited by Will_Heath : 19-Oct-2005 at 10:06 PM. |
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20-Oct-2005
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#34 | ||
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bonsaiTALK Master Chief
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http://dictionary.reference.com/sea...0the%20question http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm (particularly "Begging the question") I don't particularly disagree with your sentiment but you've failed to prove your point.
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---------------------------------- © 2004 - present bwaynef Quote:
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20-Oct-2005
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#35 | ||
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Air Assault All The Way.
 
Join Date: Mar-2004
Location: Huntersville, NC (near Charlotte)
Country: USA
USDA Zone: 7-8
Posts: 1,702
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Quote:
Will, Excellent points. It seems there is an underlying belief that only through being a "rebel" can you do something noteworthy. Even rebels have many of the same ideals as those who are more orthodox in their approach. It mirrors the willingness to ignore "rules" (let's call them traditionally, time-proven techniques). Quite frankly, impatience has to be a leading cause of the tendency to stray from what has been taught. Sometimes, that's the right decision, but often times it is not. Some individuals take extra pride in being able to say, "Look at me, I don't follow the rules". That might be fine if you are talking about not placing the primary branch 1/3 up the trunk, or using a side-back-side approach to branching. Now break the rules concerning potting time on a black pine and do it in mid-January, only water your satsuki once a week with lots of lime in the fertilizer, etc. Do those things and you will find out why the "rules" exist. You cannot separate the horticultural and artistic "rules" of bonsai, carte blanche, because sometimes they exist in symbiosis. They at least have to be known before you can make an objective decision to take a different approach. Sure, consider other options, but be patient - and dare I say, mature - enough to give the rules a passing glance. John
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John Dixon Si vis pacem parabellum Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are. |
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20-Oct-2005
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#36 |
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bonsaiTALK ArchMaster
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Will,
Excellent points. The loudest critics of "the rules" are usually folks who have been doing bonsai for less than five years. They have some vague feeling they're being oppressed by the "bonsai snobs" out there trying to impose something on them. They want their freedom, to throw off the shackles of their bonsai oppressors--- A-TTI-CA A-TTI-CA A-TTI-CA  What they haven't grasped yet is that there really are no "rules" set up by some secret sect of bonsai mandarins --only visually sound ways to design bonsai. The "rules" are only an attempt to put those visually sound techniques into writing. They are free to do what they want, but like all freedoms, bonsai freedom is dogged by consequences. Ignoring them results in feeble bonsai. Bonsai "rules" are alot like physics. People try to ignore the "laws" of physics, but it always comes back to get them. Someone trying to jump the Grand Canyon on a motorcycle is looking to defy physics, physics always wins--the motocycle always returns to earth, most likely in the bottom of the canyon--what goes up must come down. Complaining about it is fun and entertaining, but ultimately doesn't do any good--gravity wins. |
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20-Oct-2005
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#38 |
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Bonsai nare-do-well
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"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." -- Harlan Ellison
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20-Oct-2005
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#39 | |
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Nice. However, actually stating a specific point that I failed to prove and giving examples and/or debating the points I did make would have been more productive. However, it is a pleasant change from the usual argumentum ad hominem.  A better example may be of the great painters and sculptors of the past, most of who apprenticed for many years learning the basic strokes and techniques before breaking out on their own and only then creating something new and different. Will Last edited by Will_Heath : 20-Oct-2005 at 11:28 AM. |
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20-Oct-2005
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#40 |
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bonsaiTALK Expert
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my view on it is that you can break the rules once you have an understanding of what works visually as bonsai. Some people have this understanding almost instictively, some arrive at it after some time, some of us never get it.
At the risk of making this an art discussion, it goes back to the question of what makes "good art". GOOD Bonsai is not a simple case of "follow these steps and you will get a bonsai" just like how a paint by numbers kit isn't fine art painting. I prefer to think of the rules as "guidelines" which perhaps gives them their correct name. BTW have a look at the book "Classic Bonsai of Japan" how many of those trees follow "the rules"?
__________________
Best Regards, Leslie St. John Barbados West Indies Remember: Opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone's got one |
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