Breaking the Rules

BrianG

Hans,

If you want to discuss rules about posting, please start another thread and don't hijack mine.

Cordially,
Brian

Joanie

Hans, there are rules about posting. But debate is allowed. No one has crossed the line in this thread, we just have different ideas.

It's great to be able to discuss our ideas across oceans and continents, even if we may not agree. Just remember that the discussion is NOT personal. Everyone is entitled to respect.

Joanie

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hansvanmeer

Hi Brian.
I dont think i have been hijacking your thread?
especialy after all the effort i have gone trough to ad to the discussion!(deed you mis them)
It is was just ment as: that the people that are almost def to any thing else than there bonsai "RULES" keep on turning peoples words around it to something else!
Just look back to some of the replys i had on mine input to the discussion!
The part i posted about rules for posting was about that and nothing else!
Buth do not dispare all you difenders off the "rules" i cant be bothered any more!
Hans.

hansvanmeer

I gould not agree with you more that it is great to discuss our ideas across oceans and continents, aspecialy if we dont agree or have different ideas!
Because that is wat discussion is about !
I only think that not every person is trying actualy to reed what somebody is bringin in to the discussion if this goos against there own ideas!
Everyone is entitled to respect in this case, is just about right i think!
And just like how i lurned bonsai: from now one i wil just look at the pictures!
Signing off with the upmost respect,
Hans van Meer.

Ian_Homer

Hans,

There always comes a point in a thread (and this has been a long one ) when you just need to switch off. I think you have made your views and stand-point quite clearly, but there will always be others coming from a different viewpoint.

Here is my take on the matter.....

Wrong or Right, it is up to the individual to apply or "bend" the rules to the best of their ability. The inexperienced have a certain amount of ignorance, and tend to style to what pleases the eye on first sight. Those with greater knowledge and more experience learn what is possible, workable and looks better in the longer time frame that is involved in creating a higher quality Bonsai, one that can then be appreciated by their peers, who also realise how the very same rules have been adhered to - or ignored to create the finished image.

That is how we can tell the difference between a full time "Master" at the art or one who just dabbles at a part-time craft. Every now and then, a new person springs onto the Bonsai scene because they have a unique style or a new "vision" of what can be achieved by breaking the rules in certain ways. It is the very fact of them doing this, that brings them to our attention.

I'm thinking, Walter, Marco, Boon and Kevin Wilson to name a few . . . .

It has been an interesting debate and your input has been most welcome.

Best Regards,
Ian.

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Will_Heath

And now for my take....

I have posted three examples (one, two, three) of unconventional bonsai in order to prove that all quality bonsai are built on a solid foundation of these traditional rules that we have been discussing.

These three examples all "broke" some of the rules but it was shown without a doubt that they followed far more than they broke. Hence we see that even bonsai that are out of the norm, unconventional, naturalistic, or grown only for flower display do indeed still rest heavily upon these "rules."

I have requested that anyone who feels that the rules are not important, that they need not be followed, that they are outdated show just one single example of a quality bonsai that breaks all the rules. This challenge was unmet and I believe it was unmet because there is no such thing.

Therefore, taking this debate to it's logical conclusion....the "rules" are just as important today as they ever were. Bonsaist must first study them and understand them before they can deviate from them. To blindly dismiss them is harmful to the art, you can not create a quality bonsai without them.


My thoughts, my beliefs,


Will

Ian_Homer

Will,

I would agree entirely.

But - you have to know them to realise what it is you are complying with or indeed, bending or breaking !

I doubt myself there is ANY such bonsai anywhere that does not have some resemblence to the "rulebook" somewhere in its form.

That is the very essence of the art crafted over hudreds of years to what we see today.

Best regards,
Ian.

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Vance Wood

I agree Will. I think most of the people that argue against the rules probably don't know them, but if they are capable of producing a decent bonsai it will be found that they did indeed follow the rules, albeit instinctively. There are certain sensibilities that are more or less accepted as desirable to human nature, just as most people even if they have not been taught so, have a basic understanding of what is right and what is wrong. Of course there are exceptions and in most of these cases the exceptions are pariah being too far out of the mainstream for most to find acceptable, either behaviorally or aesthetically.

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Repotter

May I begin "breaking" rules as I learn them or must I wait until I learn them all?
Because I may not ever learn them all, and I can't wait to break some.