Bonsai Stock Chat

TreeBay

Old_Mister_Crow : Hello, gentlemen...
DiamondLyme84 : hello
alkeppler : ah..yes he has slunked into the open...
alkeppler : Where have you been?
Old_Mister_Crow : Hey! You talkin' to me?
Old_Mister_Crow : &#59
alkeppler : yes. I been needing help here!
Old_Mister_Crow : I've been away at a conference...and then when I got back I was so disgusted with the general $#%$% of this place...
Old_Mister_Crow : ...that I've been relatively quiet.
alkeppler : We need your rapier wit
alkeppler : me too
Old_Mister_Crow : Flattery will get you nowhere, Keppler.
alkeppler : Hello 84
Old_Mister_Crow : Let me quickly peruse the "outline" of tonight's chat...
alkeppler : Where the heck is Matt?
Lobby :
TreeBay : Greetings folks
alkeppler : He arisen
TreeBay : I am struggling here with a poor Comcast cable connection
TreeBay : So if I disappear for some reason, don't call the paramedics, call the techs!
alkeppler : Wish I had cable
TreeBay : You don't wish you had THIS cable
alkeppler : I have to sneak out and refresh every once and awhile
alkeppler : so I hear
TreeBay : Oh so you don't get turned off
Old_Mister_Crow : Does that mean "sneak out and get a beer?", Al?
TreeBay :
alkeppler : Bonsai Stock huh...
Old_Mister_Crow : Or sneak out and take a leak?
TreeBay : That's right. I put together an outline here: http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/showthr...32491#post32491
alkeppler : both
Lobby :
TreeBay : You should be able to right click on it and pull it up in another window
TreeBay : Welcome
Tiberious : hello all
alkeppler : howdy!
TreeBay : I think we will give maybe 3 minutes to get a quorum here
TreeBay : Does everyone know how to use this thing?
Tiberious : Will the discussion take place in this room?
TreeBay : There are various rooms, but we will probably all just stay here in the Lobby rather than confuse people
Old_Mister_Crow : Hello, Tiberious.
TreeBay : I have tried to have 2 rooms open at once but it does not seem to be possible.
TreeBay : it is possible to send an image by putting /img and then the address
alkeppler : How do you get the sound?
<<< <ZONG!> DiamondLyme84 beams out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
Lobby :

TreeBay : like that
TreeBay : but if too many send images that are too large it can really slow down some folks (Al's) connection
alkeppler : My hamsters can only run so fast
TreeBay : If you click on a name in the right window, you can send a private message to that person
Tiberious : hehe
TreeBay : I will probably be posting part of tonight's chat for others to see.
TreeBay : As some could not attend. I take it this time is OK with those who are here, but I am asking the wrong people?
Tiberious : no problem here
TreeBay : Carmi talked me into a 10PM start time, but it doesn't seem he has shown.
TreeBay : It's 8AM in Israel or something
alkeppler : 10:05 would be better
TreeBay : Secretly it is 10:05. Don't tell anyone, Al
Old_Mister_Crow : [I will probably be posting part of tonight's chat for others to see.] Hmmm....then I better not talk trash about anyone who isn't here.
TreeBay : The outline is here, and you can right click to open it in another window

http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/showthr...32491#post32491

alkeppler : me too
TreeBay : unless you are on a mac, then I don't know what exactly you do
TreeBay : We can treat this as an open forum, Q&A or whatever. When we get dead air, maybe I will bring up one of the canned topics?
alkeppler : Whats WTF?
TreeBay : World Trade Federation?
alkeppler : &#59
Lobby :
TreeBay : welcome Garrett
Garrett : hello
TreeBay : Okay, here is a question for everyone: with respect to bonsai stock, would you describe yourselves as a grower, a shopper or a... watcher
Old_Mister_Crow : What's a watcher?
TreeBay : someone that neither grows nor shops, I suppose, I couldn't think of an alternative
TreeBay :
Old_Mister_Crow : I do a bit of each.
Tiberious : grower (but I'm only here to learn, :-X)
DiamondLyme84 : (grower, only here to listen and take notes)
Garrett : I would also like to say a little bit of both
Old_Mister_Crow : I've got some less common species - rare maples, for example - growing from twigs.
TreeBay : I had outlined a definition of stock: Pre-bonsai material - also called "potensai" for "potential bonsai"
TreeBay : with some characteristics
TreeBay : Stock has basic development to make it ready for training
TreeBay : Root buttress
TreeBay : size & taper
TreeBay : and said this "Ideal stock is ready for the bonsai training."
Old_Mister_Crow : And then I'm quite happy to drop a reasonable sum on nice material. The hard part is finding nice material, irrespective of price.
TreeBay : but Bonsai Training is a loaded phrase
TreeBay : Do you know good material when you see it (irrespective of price)?
Old_Mister_Crow : I would like to think that I do.
Lobby :
alkeppler : At the end of my post in the dinner thread, I brought up the fact of when should one consider they are finally doing bonsai
Old_Mister_Crow : I know that when I go to our local bonsai nursery, 99.5% of what I see doesn't qualify.
Garrett : some selection is a matter of personal taste
Old_Mister_Crow : It's got fatal flaws of one sort or another.
Old_Mister_Crow : When I do pick up a tree for a reasonable price, folks are usually surpised that I managed "find that at ____'s nursery!"
Old_Mister_Crow : As for the fatal flaws, mostly horrible scars.
Old_Mister_Crow : Sometimes bad branch position on conifers...
alkeppler : ?
Old_Mister_Crow : ...or ugly swollen grafts.
alkeppler : From Imports?
TreeBay : Originally, I went straight to the source and imported some branchless trunks from Japan and pines that had some field development, but that seems almost impossible nowadays
Old_Mister_Crow : Mostly.
Tiberious : at what size would a conifer qualify as ideal stock?
TreeBay : I meant branchless deciduous stumps
Bonsainut : holy moly, 7 of you , hey dudes , dudettes maybe
Old_Mister_Crow : My personal theory is that they send the cr@p over here to the US.
TreeBay : I think it is scale that defines that Tiberious
Old_Mister_Crow : Because we don't know any better, by and large.
alkeppler : Depends on the finished size desired
TreeBay : If the tree is in scale, then any size is acceptable stock
Old_Mister_Crow : Put a white pine on swollen black pine stock and apparently most buyers think "Whoa, cool huge-@ss trunk!"
alkeppler : Even if it has ugly reverse taper
Bonsainut : whaz topic, oh pickin good stock
TreeBay : unfortunately that was the only way to get a black pine past customs
TreeBay : with white pine foliage on it.
alkeppler : Nut: yes
Bonsainut : slow typer sorry
Bonsainut : slow thinker too
TreeBay : So, what do you think of this "model" for stock development
TreeBay : Mature Field stock --> Growing Box --> Training Container --> Bonsai Pot --> Show container
Old_Mister_Crow : DiamondLyme - don't hesitate to jump right on in!!! None of us bite!
DiamondLyme84 : I'm just learning and taking notes
Garrett : like me
Bonsainut : I like it
alkeppler : That would be perfect if the stock all comes out fairly alike
alkeppler : Trouble is it don't
TreeBay : Yes, every tree is different, well most are different!
TreeBay : Some can go straight to the training container
Old_Mister_Crow : DiamondLyme, this hardly seems a place to learn bonsai. A stack of cranky b@stards typing with two fingers and spouting off the same old same old....
TreeBay : probably a rare few can go in a show pot
alkeppler : I think growers have to look at bonsai stock as selling units
TreeBay : Or the bonepile &#59
Bonsainut : tb, how do you specify to whom your responding

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TreeBay

TreeBay : When I visited Nipomo - al remembers the name I forget)
alkeppler : why bother with un attractive stock
Old_Mister_Crow : ...so just dive in and enjoy the conversation!
TreeBay : Click the blue @ sign on the right panel or just click @ and type the name
TreeBay : They were making less than if they were growing christmas trees
Bonsainut : tthanks
alkeppler : Muranaka
Old_Mister_Crow : So this is different than a private message?
TreeBay : maybe their pricing had been adjusted. Thanks Al,
alkeppler : What do you mean on the pricing?
alkeppler : Still 6.00 a gallon
TreeBay : I think they were getting about $5 a year on a tree. $30-35 on a five year old tree
alkeppler : Yea, 6.00 a gallon
alkeppler : Some shimpakus go for more
alkeppler : depends on the size
TreeBay : I was tempted to tell them I'll just buy the trees and leave them in the ground here. You grow them and I'll come out and prune them once in a while.
alkeppler : All in all a fair place to shop
Bonsainut : I have a few of there Jbpines nice material
TreeBay : They have very sandy soil and I asked what they were doing for fertilizer, but they said nothing.
Bonsainut : Cept for the sand they come in
TreeBay : Then one day I was there when it was raining cats and dogs and the neighbor's septic backed up, and now I know how they fertilize.
Old_Mister_Crow : Is this place somewhere in sourthern CA?
Bonsainut : uh huh
Bonsainut : nipomo
DiamondLyme84 : I need to visit there
alkeppler : Near the central coast
TreeBay : It's sort of close to San Luis Obispo. Within 75 miles I think
Tiberious : closer then that
alkeppler : Near Pismo Beach
Bonsainut : coastal Santa barbara
Old_Mister_Crow : North or south of Obispo?
Tiberious : south
Old_Mister_Crow : (Oh...South.)
Old_Mister_Crow : Cool.
alkeppler : 9 miles south of Pismo
TreeBay : I am Geographically Challenged
Bonsainut : Spent a week there one night
TreeBay : Is that possible?
Old_Mister_Crow : I'm in Santa Barbara often enough. I'll swing by next time I'm down there.
Tiberious : I need info, I go to Pismo often
TreeBay : Basically you tag your trees and they dig once a year.
alkeppler : PM mr for a map
Tiberious : k
TreeBay : They were limiting folks to 3 or 5 trees a year, don't remember which.
alkeppler : sorry ..me
Old_Mister_Crow : Damn, less than a half-hour into the chat and I already learned something useful.
TreeBay : I may have something to do with that
Old_Mister_Crow : *grin*
Bonsainut : You guys type fast
alkeppler : about 50 miles nort of Santa Barbara
alkeppler : Queer eye for the Bonsai Guy
Bonsainut : Have anyone been to House of bonsai in Lakewood
Old_Mister_Crow :
DiamondLyme84 : I think I have
alkeppler : ME!
TreeBay : I bought a trident from them at convention I think.
Old_Mister_Crow :
Bonsainut : Man miles of stock ,eh
Old_Mister_Crow : Hmm...good stuff, Matt!
TreeBay : Al has a nursery review online. Two reviews actually.
alkeppler : Yea twisted junipers from around a stake
Bonsainut : missed that
TreeBay : One of my first bonsai was a staked juniper. My teacher hated it.
TreeBay : I had some notes on problems with stock:
Bonsainut : got several nice banshoho blk pines there
alkeppler : They are hard to make look good
TreeBay : May have large wounds from removing major branches.
TreeBay : Existing branches may be coarse and poorly placed
TreeBay : Root system may still be expansive with limited feeder roots, not yet adapted to a bonsai container
Bonsainut : and several blue atlas ceders hard to find
TreeBay : I think the Nipomo pines had all those problems.
Bonsainut : and a stump
alkeppler : Roots are always a problem
TreeBay : I got too aggressive and went straight to training pots and lost about 15% of them.
TreeBay : If they had been in 5 gallon pots, even in their lumpy sand, for one year, it probably would have been 100% success
Bonsainut : Sd bonsai Club bougt 40 over last four years lost way more that 15 percent
alkeppler : Just need to slow down the process
TreeBay : They could not grow cork bark pines for more than a couple years as they would be bought out immature.
Bonsainut : uh huh
TreeBay : Same problem with ume. They need 10 years out there and they would sell in 5
Bonsainut : oh yeah?
TreeBay : maybe fewere if they were flowering
alkeppler : They just need to raise the price
DiamondLyme84 : or put them in a back area (possibly)
Old_Mister_Crow : Exactly, Al.
TreeBay : So I think the demand was there. I also think their pricing model was messed up.
Old_Mister_Crow : Unless you get higher yearly return on those first five years than on the second five.
Old_Mister_Crow : Even if the second five are what "make" the tree.
Bonsainut : Tree bay are you close to Johnny uchida
TreeBay : yes he is in Hayward about 30-40 minutes away in the East Bay
TreeBay : I am in the South Bay
alkeppler : They almost sell exclusivly container stock that has been grown by someone else
Bonsainut : nice nursery
Bonsainut : Uchida?
TreeBay : That's Grove Way, you mean, now?
alkeppler : Yes
Bonsainut : In oakland I think
TreeBay : He has friends who import in Sacramento, like Muranaka and others
TreeBay : Hayward - if you mean Grove Way
alkeppler : The best is still Murayama in Sac.
Bonsainut : Oh its all oakland to me
TreeBay : Sorry I said Muranaka nad I meant Murayama
Bonsainut : yeah been there was hard to find
TreeBay : There was another guy out there I visited once. I should have paid better attention. His name was Tommy I think, and he had a huge amount of stock.
Bonsainut : nice bonsai and stuff
alkeppler : It is real nice
Bonsainut : where
TreeBay : I went to help load trees and he had dozens if not hundreds of imported trees around the pool
alkeppler : Tommy is still around
alkeppler : I went there last year after the convention
Bonsainut : Trees around the pool sounds like heaven
TreeBay : Was he Tommy, you'll have to tell me more sometime, Al
TreeBay : Yeah, it was hard to walk around without falling in.
TreeBay : More like a fire hazard!
alkeppler : Yes a fire hazard
alkeppler : He is pretty old and wishes to do business with old freinds
alkeppler : I am not one of them. I went with old freinds
TreeBay : I had a good time out there. He served us abalone and just chatted in Japanese

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TreeBay

Bonsainut : Theres a nursery in pleasonton I think run by a ole japanese family, still there anybody?
TreeBay : Hotsushi?
alkeppler : I have some pics of the place somewhere
TreeBay : That was maybe San Ramon I think, just outside Pleasanton
TreeBay : Or maybe it was Livermore
Bonsainut : Had some nice yard blk pines
alkeppler : The best place I have found oin the west coast so far was Kims, in Phelan
Bonsainut : some had some bonsai potensial
Bonsainut : Oh
TreeBay : Kims is where the trident came from. I take it all back. My wife bought it for me as a gift.
Bonsainut : Have to check him out
Bonsainut : Yeah we know your precious
TreeBay : It is in the "training pot" stage and it should be in the "growing container" phase. Next year.
Bonsainut : trident that is
TreeBay : The "growing container" is a necessary step to heal wounds in the trunk.
alkeppler : Yes the place is wonderful. If you like HOB, you will never go there again after a trip to Kim's
TreeBay : The tree has to grow like gangbusters to heal big field pruning wounds.
Bonsainut : hob
TreeBay : House o' Bonsai
Bonsainut : HOB?
alkeppler : House of Bonsai
Bonsainut : GOTCHA
TreeBay : HOB?
TreeBay : sorry, I couldn't resist
alkeppler : Hobbit
Bonsainut : where are not on that familiar terms yet
Bonsainut : Leila teaches there
TreeBay : so we have touched on purchasing somewhat mature stock. How about what to look for
TreeBay : ?
alkeppler : Yes she does.
Bonsainut : Shes funny snd good
Bonsainut : and good
DiamondLyme84 : trunk with nice taper, trunk with movement
DiamondLyme84 : well developed nebari, or nebari that is on the way to being well developed
alkeppler : Trunk movement for me!
TreeBay : I hear that!
alkeppler : With the almighty taper
DiamondLyme84 : if the trunk is well enough developed, the beginnings to good branch structure
alkeppler : then nebari
Bonsainut : second the motion
DiamondLyme84 : oh yeah, and the tree needs to be alive &#59
alkeppler : and fianlly overall health
Old_Mister_Crow : I'm usually looking for low branching...
Bonsainut : some low branching lots of interior growth
TreeBay : oh, but that should be first!
TreeBay : health, that is
Bonsainut : uh huh
Old_Mister_Crow : Unless it's a deciduous species that I'm sure I can force back.
Bonsainut : use the force omc
DiamondLyme84 : the force is with you
TreeBay : Ripsgreentree (he who is not here) is a strong believer in rootage above all else.
alkeppler : I need something to catch my eye
TreeBay : or below all else, I guess i should say.
Bonsainut : who is defoliating now?
Old_Mister_Crow : Bears, meanwhile, $hit in the woods.
DiamondLyme84 : well, rootage can be something that can really catch your eye
Bonsainut : good way to use the force
DiamondLyme84 : like that gardenia you've got Al
alkeppler : yea good and bad
TreeBay : I don't defoliate stock, but I defoliated an oak earlier this week
Bonsainut : oh really rips likes rootage?
Old_Mister_Crow : I'm not. I've got nothing far enough along for that, to be honest.
Bonsainut : I love to defol elms maple zelcovs bougys
Old_Mister_Crow : I defoliated a juniper, but that was by forgeting it behind the shed after the painters left.
alkeppler : I will defoliate on the 15th of August for the convention
Old_Mister_Crow : Doesn't seem to be coming back with smaller foliage, though.
TreeBay : Defoliation will improve ramification and refine branches, but it weakens the tree to some degree, so the tree needs to be strong, and it will set back your growth some.
Old_Mister_Crow : Or any foliage, for that matter. &#59
Bonsainut : give em a good trim and wattch em pop
Bonsainut : oh yeah there strong.....fish emusion
alkeppler : I am trying a defoliation on my pines this year
Bonsainut : every body say shweeee that strong
Bonsainut : huih?
Old_Mister_Crow : What?
TreeBay : candle pruning? or something more radical?
DiamondLyme84 : complete removal of needles?
Bonsainut : carful now that crazy talk
Bonsainut : bonsai crazy talk. com
Old_Mister_Crow :
alkeppler : back... had to get a popsicle and a beer
Old_Mister_Crow : Interesting combination.
<<< Tiberious drops an expensive concave cutter and crawls out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
Bonsainut : ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
DiamondLyme84 : what kind of popsicle?
Bonsainut : beer popsicle
Old_Mister_Crow : What kind of beer?
alkeppler : I'm peckin as fast as I can
Bonsainut : homemade
Old_Mister_Crow : I think that all of the alcohol comes out when you do that.
Old_Mister_Crow :
Bonsainut : Omc ,so funny
Bonsainut : you Americanos you are a so afunny
alkeppler : orange pop and miller light
TreeBay : who's growing their own stock?
Garrett : I was wondering have any of you tried eBay as a means to select either stock to be "converted" into bonsai or the purchasing of mature trees?
Bonsainut : I
Old_Mister_Crow : Miller light? I thought you had class.
DiamondLyme84 : *attempting to grow own stock*
alkeppler : what do you mean by grow
Old_Mister_Crow : I've never used eBay for either.
Old_Mister_Crow : I've been tempted to try Mountain Maples, though....
DiamondLyme84 : good question, Al
Old_Mister_Crow : ...loathe as I am to buy stock sight unseen.
Garrett : how about selling excess?
Bonsainut : uh maybe
Old_Mister_Crow : Excess gets donated to the club.
Lobby :
Garrett : I understand one or two pictures takes alot of faith
Bonsainut : uh maybe
Old_Mister_Crow : I'm growing a fair bit of stock from pretty small, Matt.
alkeppler : Do you define grow as " in the ground
Bonsainut : have a few tools on ther now
Old_Mister_Crow : A couple of dozen mountain hemlocks.
Bonsainut : nursery pots and in the ground
Old_Mister_Crow : A dozen maples of various species.
Garrett : treebay, what do you think?
Old_Mister_Crow : A smattering of oaks, hornbeams, and the likes.
Bonsainut : yeah what do you think
Bonsainut : hes watchin tv
TreeBay : sorry I checked out to deal with the baby
Old_Mister_Crow : I just dug out a big flowerbed, much to my wife's dismay, to plant a new round of stock from 4" to 1-gallon cans.
TreeBay : just a sec please and I will get caught up
Bonsainut : excused
Old_Mister_Crow : Understandable, Matt.
alkeppler : leave it to beaver
Bonsainut : babys ots o babys
Bonsainut : lots of babys
TreeBay : I am beginning to think that growing stock is not the best use of my time
Bonsainut : wheres Andy
TreeBay : and energy
<<< alkeppler leaves bonsaiTALK Chat. :
Garrett : why is that?
Bonsainut : Imiss him
Old_Mister_Crow : Depends what you want, Matt.
TreeBay : I do think I learned a lot about trees and plants' development but I also think it's a messy prospect in the suburbs
Old_Mister_Crow : I don't where to buy a 10-year-old cyprian maple...for any price.
Bonsainut : alot of people think that way
TreeBay : I think my family would rather have the yard cluttered with recognizable trees in various states of development than green bushy things
Garrett : ok
Bonsainut : like kimura, mitsuya, suzuki

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TreeBay

TreeBay : I took some photos at Doug Philips place today on the Midori tour. Doug has been developing mansize trees from bundled saplings
TreeBay : He had an article in Bonsai Today recently
Old_Mister_Crow :
Bonsainut : I have a sorry one of thoose
TreeBay : There are some informal uprights, now OMC.
Bonsainut : he came did a demo here
Old_Mister_Crow : Cyprian maple? Or bundled sapling disaster?
TreeBay : Sorry he is doing some informal uprights in addition to the "overtapered" future oil slicks
Bonsainut : I used my air nail gun instead of the tiedowns etc
Old_Mister_Crow : Matt, I don't care if there are some in the splitting image of Michelle Pfeiffer - I say that bundled saplings look like crap.
TreeBay : trust me they don't!
Bonsainut : Now now
Bonsainut : I seen em in person everyone was drooling
TreeBay : Daughter is grabbing camera equpment from the car
Old_Mister_Crow : Really?
Old_Mister_Crow : So these actually look OK?
Bonsainut : unnmichell pfeiffer
Bonsainut : i mean uuummmm
Bonsainut : yeah really
Old_Mister_Crow : Even if not particularly Pfeifferesque?
Bonsainut : the eldest ones
Old_Mister_Crow : Wow. I guess I'll believe it when I see it. I was not impressed by that BT article.
Bonsainut : eldest a word?
Old_Mister_Crow : Yep.
Bonsainut : thansk
Bonsainut : bad typer sorry
Bonsainut : ole moster is mt si nursery still in bizness?
Old_Mister_Crow : Nut, are you growing stock in the ground?
Lobby :
Old_Mister_Crow : No, it's not, sadly. Went out of business right before I got up here, in fact.
Old_Mister_Crow : So I've never even been.
alkeppler : sorry, the old steam engine ran out of water
Old_Mister_Crow : We've just got Bonsai Northwest in the vicinity.
Bonsainut : That was a real nice nursery
Old_Mister_Crow : So I've heard.
Bonsainut : where went the stock?
TreeBay : here's the first he did
alkeppler : To the USDA
Old_Mister_Crow : I don't know. Maybe Bonsai Northwest bought some of it up? I'm really not sure.
TreeBay : Doug philips that is

Old_Mister_Crow : See, to me that just looks like cr@p. A skillful horticultural trick, but that's about it.
Garrett : this may be a dumb question since the majorit y of y'all live in CA, but has anyone tried growing giant sequoia's from seedlings
DiamondLyme84 : It's a good (and very radical) idea, but to me, the tree just does not look natural
Old_Mister_Crow : I haven't...
Bonsainut : what happened. a very young piece of stock though
alkeppler : What do you not like about it OMC, and don't sugar coat it
Bonsainut : not goo bonsai material
Old_Mister_Crow : You know what I don't like about it, Al.
Old_Mister_Crow : First, the taper.
Bonsainut : sempervirens is god though
alkeppler : too much
Bonsainut : good
Old_Mister_Crow : Second, the absence of a transition to the root base.
alkeppler : Ahh... you need an oil spill
DiamondLyme84 : personally (take this with a bit of salt), I do not think the foliage looks natural
Old_Mister_Crow : Third, the coiling movement on a species that shouldn't have that coiling. It's not a damn bristlecone!
Old_Mister_Crow : I knew you were trying to get me to say that.
alkeppler : wekll that does look funny
Old_Mister_Crow : Oil spill, no.
Bonsainut : Its very young guys
Old_Mister_Crow : Something other than perfectly rigid triangle? Yes.
Bonsainut : there are just lill seedling
TreeBay : The soil level is very high right now
alkeppler : I wonder about putting the liners on more verticly

Old_Mister_Crow : Nut, most people would argue that it's far nicer than anything in my collection, and I'm not disputing that.
Bonsainut : he does that too on some
Old_Mister_Crow : I just don't like it at all.
Old_Mister_Crow : Maybe I'm just being a traditionalist, as well.
TreeBay : OMC I think you don't like massive based tridents, is all.
Bonsainut : of course
Old_Mister_Crow : Yeah, that's part of it.
Bonsainut : dats cool
TreeBay : There is a traditional element to the massive based trident
DiamondLyme84 : well, there might be such a thing as too massive
Garrett : ohh, I see what he is doing, I didnt understand what was controversial about his technique
Bonsainut : maybee
Bonsainut : but Ill take it, put in in my shopping cart anyday
Old_Mister_Crow : I think the traditionalist in me is really horrified by the whole approach.
TreeBay : Tridents actually grow that way in Japan. Trees used to grow like that in England before they cut 'em all donw
TreeBay : down
alkeppler : uh oh
Old_Mister_Crow : Uh oh what?
alkeppler : Traditionalist
Bonsainut : thts terrible they cut em all down
Old_Mister_Crow : I guess it's sort of like this. You can trim a boxwood into the shape of a llama if you want to, but it still ain't a llama. Just ask Paul.
Old_Mister_Crow : Same thing here. You can shape a couple of dozen seedlings into a big old bonsai, but it still ain't a big old bonsai.
Bonsainut : its a topiary
alkeppler : He keeps um for the wool ya know &#59
Old_Mister_Crow :
alkeppler : Yes but bonsai is all about ilusion
alkeppler : illusion
TreeBay : I just pulled this trident off a Korean bonsai website

Garrett : how long does the process take to get that kind of results?
Old_Mister_Crow : Wrong, dear Mr. Keppler.
Old_Mister_Crow : It's not all about the illusion.
Bonsainut : All I know is Ive never seen the ole masters in the club get so excited, everybodys planting trident seeds
Old_Mister_Crow : Otherwise we'd make bonsai out of synthetic materials...molded from plastic...with the latest hi-tech materials for leaves.
alkeppler : steady, hear it comes
Bonsainut : these are only a few years old

Old_Mister_Crow : No, bonsai is about "freedom within constraint" to steal a phrase from OULIPO.
TreeBay : a real maple
TreeBay : a real, old maple
Garrett : like less than 20
Bonsainut : fiber optic bonsai !!!!1
Old_Mister_Crow : One of the contraints is that you've got to use a damn tree!
Old_Mister_Crow : Not plastic.
Old_Mister_Crow : Not 24 trees.
Old_Mister_Crow : Not a llama.
Bonsainut : 3-5 years
alkeppler : who made that rul
Garrett :
Bonsainut : rule
DiamondLyme84 : I was just thinking about the fiber optic bonsai!
alkeppler : yea
Garrett : there actually is such thing as a fiber optic bonsai
Old_Mister_Crow : I think we all, did, Al. Otherwise we'd be buying plastic bonsai. Otherwise people wouldn't wince at Tanuki grafts.
Bonsainut : great minds work alike

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TreeBay

alkeppler : what if... you didn't know how it was made and you seen the tree for the first time
TreeBay : so is it the means or the end that is most offensive?
Old_Mister_Crow : Good question, Al. I think my appreciation for the tree...
Old_Mister_Crow : ...would plummet when I turned it over and found it *hollow* on the inside.
Bonsainut : give it few years you will chang yer mind
TreeBay : one of them is hollow and doesn't require turning over to see it
Old_Mister_Crow : It's hard to explain the sense of visceral disgust that I get at that image.
Bonsainut : change
Bonsainut : touche'
Old_Mister_Crow : Matt, I think it's the means.
alkeppler : I still go to ms=agic shows even though I am bambozzeled everytime I go. I think they are masters at what they do
Old_Mister_Crow : I don't like the ends, but what really turns my stomach is the means.
Bonsainut : you win I hate them too
Old_Mister_Crow : And I like topiary. Those dudes are masters too.
Old_Mister_Crow : But they're not bonsai masters.
Old_Mister_Crow : Serious, Nut?
Old_Mister_Crow : Or just screwing around with whatever is left of my brain?
alkeppler : What defines a mbonsai master?
Bonsainut : am I ever
TreeBay : The first few were not hollow, though. There is a wood core, if that makes it any better?
Old_Mister_Crow : I can't give you a suffient condition for "bonsai master", Al, but I can give you a necessary one...
Bonsainut : what you said
Old_Mister_Crow : ...you have to do BONSAI and not something else.
alkeppler : define bonsai?
Bonsainut : its wrapped around a core of bald cypress but will eventually rot out I guess
alkeppler : What Doug does is just a sub culture or facet of bonsai
Old_Mister_Crow : I don't know...does a wood core make it any better? Do a couple of silicone sacs make Pamela Anderson any hotter?
Bonsainut : you guys are too fast leaving me in the dust
Garrett : that is a good question
TreeBay : The guy is 50 years old and developed a technique that lets him enjoy some massive trunk-like material that he otherwise couldn't grow in his lifetime.
Bonsainut : the ultimate tanuki I guess
Old_Mister_Crow : A facet of bonsai? Not unless sculptors who sculpt bonsai are also bonsai artists.
Old_Mister_Crow : Which they are, in a way.
Old_Mister_Crow : Because they celebrate bonsai.
alkeppler : To some, just like Doug's trees. Some will like it and some will not. But I think he is still doing bonsai and is pretty imaginative at it I would say
Old_Mister_Crow : And Doug apparently does that beautifully.
Old_Mister_Crow : So yeah, I guess you're right in that sense.
Old_Mister_Crow : The ultimate Tanuki is a good way to phrase it.
Old_Mister_Crow : Taking the original meaning of tanuki - the trickster implication.
Bonsainut : I think hes a real thinker like out side the box
alkeppler : maybe, I think it;s still early and the verdict is out
Bonsainut : a good demo too
alkeppler : I guess you would have to see one close up
Bonsainut : oh yesah these are young
TreeBay : I think in 5 years or so it will be very difficult to tell that these are manmade creations if you want to call them that
Old_Mister_Crow : Look, guys, as likely as not I'm on the wrong side of history on this one.
Bonsainut : individually they would still be in ones
Old_Mister_Crow : Personal aesthetics isn't about reasoned choice, though...
Old_Mister_Crow : ...or Bayesian calculation of what will be the future of the art.
Bonsainut : uh huh
Bonsainut : dont follow
alkeppler : Like you said about the turning over thing. One thing I hate is after I make a stand, the first thing someone does is turn it over and look at the bottom. Why?
Bonsainut : to look for gender?
TreeBay : an informal upright too...

TreeBay : sorry, it's a bit hard to see with that soil there
Old_Mister_Crow : Wow. It's funny, but I really dislike that.
Old_Mister_Crow : It's something Terry Gilliam would come up with in a twisted movie about the future of bonsai.
TreeBay : I have a Korean Hornbeam that was basically in that shape when I bought it in Japan about 5 years ago, imported from Korea, I think.

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TreeBay

Old_Mister_Crow :
TreeBay : I think that tree is 1 year old. Not more than 2
Old_Mister_Crow : Maybe I'll come around in a decade or so.
Old_Mister_Crow : Wouldn't be the first time.
Bonsainut : its just the first stages
Old_Mister_Crow : Nut, I think the point for me is that the first stages are part of the history of the tree....so the tree is always carrying this ugliness with it.
TreeBay : Yes, it's very young. That can be a problem in development because growth is rampant, not like the 40 year old tree it might resemble
Old_Mister_Crow : But hell, I feel like I'm really trashing on a creative and talented person who I don't even know, just because I feel compelled to defend my viewpoint on the matter.
Garrett : what is the future of bonsai, at least in the U.S., do y'all think bonsai will become more and more popural with each successive generation at a younger age
Old_Mister_Crow : And that's not a very nice thing to be doing. Can we make fun of the IBC or something harmless, instead?
Old_Mister_Crow : &#59
TreeBay : I have a "real" korean hornbeam that I pumped full of epoxy to stop the rot within. And some maples with bondo in them. I think Johnny Uchida has a number of Korean hornbeams full of concrete.
Bonsainut : no bigge trashing is what we do
alkeppler : Thats the nutshell. You have to see one in person to really trash it
Old_Mister_Crow : Yeah, I hate Johnny Uchida's filled hornbeams, too. I've seen those in person.
Bonsainut : uh huh
Bonsainut : cream fill hornbeams uummmm
Old_Mister_Crow : That would be really nice, Garrett, but I don't know...
Bonsainut : filled
Old_Mister_Crow :
TreeBay : still very young:

Bonsainut : popular, no I think it has kida cooled form all the mallsai
Garrett : is bonsai, and the required patience something that can only be appreciated at an older age
Old_Mister_Crow : Wow! Wonderful picture....
DiamondLyme84 : that is the COOLEST kid ever
TreeBay : Thanks. The baby likes bonsai or whatever those thingies are
Old_Mister_Crow : Garrett, let me be blunt. If bonsai had been what kids were into, I would have found the patience for it.
alkeppler : no, but it can help being retired to do all the required maintenance to make really quality bonsai
Old_Mister_Crow : Kids find the patience to fix up crappy old cars and make them gorgeous...
Old_Mister_Crow : ...thant's no less work.
TreeBay : Doug is a unique and creative person. I am always impressed by the lack of weeds on his open dirt. That is dedication.
Bonsainut : uh huh
alkeppler : Thats what roundup is for
Old_Mister_Crow : I think that 32 I care less about what other people will make of me than I did at 16....so it's easier to take a hobby that no one else gives a damn about it.
Old_Mister_Crow : That's the only difference I can think of.
TreeBay : Experimentation and technical prowess -- writing about what you did in a publication and sharing knowledge rather than keeping it secret and trying to cash in...
Bonsainut : ok
Bonsainut : dont follow
alkeppler : and he cooks good too!
TreeBay :
DiamondLyme84 : amen, OMC
Bonsainut : oh Doug
Old_Mister_Crow : &#59
TreeBay : When a tree crashed down in my yard on top of my bonsai, Doug was over the next morning bright and early with a chain saw.
alkeppler : next question please!

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TreeBay

Old_Mister_Crow : Ok, I've got one.
Garrett : so, to develop an interest, one almost needs to be gradually introduced by another, or see the benefits?
TreeBay : Shoot!
Bonsainut : thats cool
Old_Mister_Crow : When I started bonsai almost decade ago, I was obsessed with leaf size.
Old_Mister_Crow : The smaller the better.
Old_Mister_Crow : I wanted scale above all else.
Old_Mister_Crow : My taste has changed a lot in the last couple of years especially.
Old_Mister_Crow : I like big leaves now. Way bigger than scale.
Bonsainut : oh really
Old_Mister_Crow : I like black pines.
Old_Mister_Crow : Way out of scale.
alkeppler : Well.. you need a forest of liquid ambers
Old_Mister_Crow : I like oak, linden, maple, horse chestnut.
Old_Mister_Crow : So here's the question.
Old_Mister_Crow : Is this a common progression? What does it have to do with art and abstraction?
Bonsainut : oreintalis
alkeppler : you mean leaf size?
TreeBay : Well, if you accept a bonsai as all of creation, it shouldn't be hard to take a leaf as a bough or an entire branch
Bonsainut : Ive noticed amy of the older members specializing in the J black pine
Bonsainut : many
TreeBay : Black pine is a technical achievement in a lot of ways. it's pretty exacting in terms of timing and so forth
Old_Mister_Crow : I think the pine is almost misleading, because it's just gorgeous and challenging and interesting and one could spend a lifetime with that one species....it also happens to have big foliage, but that's almost an aside.
Bonsainut : but oak, linden, maple, horse chestnut thats different, but cool
Old_Mister_Crow : Exactly, treebay.
Old_Mister_Crow : How do you guys look at leaf size?
TreeBay : I've seen some black pine with pretty darn short needles. I don't mean cottoneaster microphylla scale, but small
Old_Mister_Crow : I'm coming to like shohin with big leaves, even.
Bonsainut : uh huh
Old_Mister_Crow : Matt - you're right - but just not in scale the way that cottoneaster microphylla is in scale.
alkeppler : Now I've heard it all
TreeBay : No. I think I hate microphyllas
Bonsainut : blasphemy
Old_Mister_Crow : Agreed, Matt.
DiamondLyme84 : as long as it is not so out of scale so that it looks ridiculous, that is my general thought (though I try and use smaller leaved species or species that can reduce leaves well)
Garrett : goodnight to all, thanks for your time, I enjoyed getting to meet everyone
Old_Mister_Crow : I'm working on a shohin horse chestnut, for example.
Old_Mister_Crow : 'night, Garrett.
TreeBay : Take care garret
<<< <ZONG!> Garrett beams out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
Bonsainut : nighty night
alkeppler : beer time
TreeBay : So, did anyone learn anything about stock, training it, buying it, hating it?
alkeppler : no but we talked alot
Bonsainut : that has kinda a compound leaf doesnt it
TreeBay : Al, you must have learned something about something?
Bonsainut : sorry are we quitting
Old_Mister_Crow : Yep.
alkeppler : Yea OMC hates Doug
TreeBay : It is looking like a wrap for tonight
TreeBay :
Old_Mister_Crow : Watch it, Al.
Bonsainut : yep which
TreeBay : Hope you can join us again next week when the topic is...
Old_Mister_Crow : His trees make me sick to my stomach, but I might like him a lot. I don't know him at all.
Bonsainut : same bat time
alkeppler : Er.. I mean hates dougs big maples
TreeBay : defoliation
TreeBay : Learn more about defoliation, and how it can reduce leaf size and improve fall coloration.
Old_Mister_Crow : Nut: Yep it has a compound leaf.
TreeBay : &#59
DiamondLyme84 : wooo
DiamondLyme84 : can't wait
Old_Mister_Crow : Reduce leaf size?
Old_Mister_Crow : &#59
TreeBay : see ya!
alkeppler : fall color
Bonsainut : yeah buddy
Old_Mister_Crow : See ya!
<<< <ZONG!> TreeBay beams out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
alkeppler : bye

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Bonsainut

that is so funny to read. we are pathetic...

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Lethal Use of Farce

diamondlyme84

T'was a lot of fun! Thank you to everyone who was there!

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