Bonsai Longevity

FredL

A constant theme in Western Bonsai seems to be the importance of creating the illusion of age and the relative insignificance of actual age in evaluating bonsai, either as a factor in personal enjoyment of a tree, judging its worth in a show or contest or in evaluating its worth when pricing its value. Showing any interest in a tree's actual age is viewed as passe and the mark of a crass outsider to the Bonsai World, something to be scorned and ridiculed.

Well, somehow, I haven't gotten the message. To my way of thinking, a tree's actual age and time spent in cultivation are two of the very most interesting points about a tree. Of course, a very young tree (by Bonsai standards) could be of excellent quality and a very old tree could be of poor quality, but this doesn't change the fact that I find a tree's history, including its age, of very great interest and one of several factors determining its value to me.

One of the most difficult aspects of the culture of Western, and especially the American Bonsai Community for me is the apparent lack of a sense of the history of our art and, especially, our trees. Or more exactly, a sense of the importance of history.

I get a sense that the acquisirion of a tree is seen as a purchase of one more consumer item and viewed very little in the sense of being taking on the responsibility of a trust. That the tree has very little significance beyond its importance as something that its owner paid alot of money for and, hopefully, might some day sell for even more.

Woking with my trees, the oldest of which might be 20 years old and three years being the longest any have been in cultivation, I try to avoid thinking about what will happen to them when I go off to the "Great Bonsai Garden in the Sky". I'd gladly give any of them to someone who would really cherish them and regard them as a "trust". As things are, I imagine they will be sold to lonely hosewives and geeky young men who will maintain an interest in them for a few months, then allow them to succumb to ignorance and neglect of their basic requirements, the common of most mallasai and most "Bonsai Starters".

Well, don't mind me. I'm in kindof a grouchy mood this morning.

Fred

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RonMartin(deceased)

Fred this leads to a few interesting thoughts.
Just when does a bonsai become a bonsai.
If I start with 100 year old nursery stock, style it and put it in a bonsai pot is it a 100 year old bonsai or has its age as a bonsai just started. Does a bonsai become a bonsai when the styling starts or when the seed germinates.
In my back yard sets two of my favorite bonsai. Both of them have been posted to this forum many times. One is a crape myrtle the other is a bald cypress.
The crape myrtle was just a twig when it went into a bonsai pot. It has been styled and maintained as a bonsai for slightly over 40 years. I am the second owner of this myrtle.
I would estimate that the bald cypress is at least 40 years old. About 10 years ago it was collected and put into a bonsai pot. I am the third owner of this tree so the styling was started by the first owner, worked on by the second and hopefully set in stone by myself.
I know the full history of both bonsai. All the owners were dear friends of mine. Two of the previous owners are now gone.
The actual chorological age of both trees are roughly the same but which one is the oldest bonsai. Any thoughts

jportock

Wow Ron great point!

My thinking up 'til now has been that age is an important part of bonsai but now I'm not sure.

I do think that if you have a tree with a heritage, ie: my grandfather began styling this tree and passed it to my father who will one day give it to me and so forth it adds to the appeal of the tree.

It is also very appealling to think about a tree that was naturally dwarfed in some rocky crevice on a mountainside and collected by someone for bonsai at 100years old.

Symbolically (artistically), age can portray wisdom and experience but I suppose the appearance of age does the same thing.

Wow, I'm not sure when (if ever) I'll get my head around this one.

Nice topic!

Thanks,
JP

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RonMartin(deceased)

Guess I should give my personal opinion on this.
The age of a bonsai starts when the styling starts. Bonsai is after all a way of styling a tree and not a really a tree after all .
What you end up with to a great extent will be decided by what you start with.
Older stock usually has more character than younger stock. For the most part it is easier to work with. One gets a "finished" bonsai quicker using older stock.
New stock is ok but takes a bit longer. Branches and trunks need to thicken. Nabari to be grown. But it is highly useable.
Both will work though.
Once you take clippers to the starting stock a bonsai is born. Before that it is just a tree.
One hundred year old trees are a dime a dozen. They are all over the place. A tree that has been in bonsai training for say 10 years is a lot more of a rare thing.
My crape myrtle is by far the oldest bonsai of the two. The cypress might however be the oldest tree.
Funny how that works out isn't it

ALDEVAUX

I agree that the age of bonsai starts when the styling starts.But it must be remembered that the tree still has the age it has when it begun as a seedling. And since trees don't live forever, I personnally think that if a tree has a lifespan of 150 years , as do some species, it is important to know approximately how many years it has left to live.

RonMartin(deceased)

Very true. Always something nice to know.
But with so many growing seedlings or buying sale trees at Home Depo etc. it might just be kind of a moot point. I would venture to say that most people would still have at least 140 years of that lifespan left.

John Dixon

I have to think that the age of the bonsai has to refer to the overall age of the material. Hawthorn is a good example of why I think this. It takes roughly 18-20 years for hawthorn to bloom, yet it could happen the same year it it first placed in a bonsai pot (albeit a twenty year old tree). Since such horticulturally important information is based on the age of the material, it seems prudent to use it for the age of the bonsai. After all, the next tidbit of info is usually how many years of training the bonsai has had.

John

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FredL

Well, to me, it's not just the age of a tree that's important, it's the history of the tree. How it was started, how it was develoed, who owned it. As to the age, well, I'd say both when it came in to being (I don't see much relevance, for example, in the history of the tree a cutting came from) and when it began cultivation as a bonsai. I say, cultivation as a bonsai, because many trees start in beds rather than pots. I think it's interesting to know that a tree grew in the mountains for 300 years as well as the fact that it was collected 20 years ago by John Doe who gave it to his friend Herbert Hoover 5 years ago after initial styling 12 years ago.Sometimes, in shows, I've seen this kind of information provided and thought it fascinating and adding considerably to the interest the tree had for me.

Does it add to the value of a tree? Well, for me, yes. Kind of like knowing that a painting is not a forgery for an art collector. Not quite the same thing, but something like that.

Fred

RonMartin(deceased)

Flowers on a hawthorn do give it character. The fact that it takes 18-20 years to bloom is a characteristic of the tree. But the flowers don't necessarily make the bonsai.
Like I said before age gives the beginning stock character but the trimming etc. makes it a bonsai.
Could a younger hawthorn be a bonsai. Yes, just not a flowering one.