Bonsai in Europe

K.A. Rutledge

Hi Scott,

I don't agree with your art/class assumptions. Some of the best artists in world history have been among the most destitute. Talent knows no economy.

I get the feeling that you belive that I've made some kind of moral judgment of not growing and displaying bonsai for the highest artistic result. I've not. I've merely pointed out (getting back to the original post that prompted my original post) that the majority of bonsai enthusiasts in the U.S. have no interest in pursuing bonsai as an art. They don't care for the artistic elements of the endeavor. The Europeans do, however, and the results are evident. This was my contribution to the discussion by way of explaining why European bonsai are generally of a higher quality than those found in the U.S.. It was not attack on "mere hobbyists".

What I said about those who have no concern for the artistic value and conventions of bonsai not contributing to excellence in bonsai was right on, however. But so what? Not everyone needs to be pushing the artistic envelope nor be among the elite (by definition, an impossibility).

Please don't read into my remarks about quality or the lack of it as being some kind of moral judgment on people on either side. My 4 year-old likes to do watercolor painting. That does not mean that his efforts are on par with Matisse or Monet. The fact that he's not does not make him a worthless person either, nor does it make his enjoyment of the endeavor any less.

Gee whiz! ;-)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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bonsaial1

Andy, I agree with everything that you have stated. I just feel that there are people in the bonsai world that have risen to a level that can nudge the future of bonsai in ways that it shouldn't go. I read posts on the IBC forum, that go on forever talking about adding more classifications to bonsai. I don't agree with it, but if thats what happens I can live with it. I just feel that the "art" thing is to subjective. I know this is extreme but what about the guy that put the crucifix in the jar of urine and called it art, or the guy that unfurls 250 yards of white cloth down the center of the grapevine in southern Calif. and calls that art.

My explanation for the Buford thing is this: There are numerous books coming out of Europe. They are loaded with photos of beautiful and very sculpted trees. Bonsai in Europe I was a big seller as was Bonsai in Europe II. You must remember that yours wasn't the only post here. Part of this had to do that Europe is willing to import better stock at higher prices. I just felt that you can't base the trees on a whole geographic region because you see some great pics in a recent book. I'm sure there are people like Buford Ghondorff in Europe that can't afford to import the higher priced stuff that some of the headliner's do. I'm just saying that the next person that may burst on the bonsai scene "is" someone like Buford Ghondorff. All it takes is getting a little recognition from the right places, being noticed by the right people and all of a sudden you are making decisions that a whole bonsai community may be following. I just feel that money is sometimes the differance that makes a bonsai display pop or look ho hum. I build my own bonsai stands. I did this because I could not afford the stands that I wanted. I knew that my displays could look better, I just could not always come up with 150.00 bucks for a stand.

I own most all the books on bonsai that have come out in the last 10 years. I am amazed that most of the people that write the books with all the beautifull trees have been doing bonsai for less time than I have. Most, not all have studied in Japan. While I live rather good, I am not rich either. I do not have the means to not work for a year or two, buy a round trip ticket to Japan, and study with a Japanese master. Much less even get asked. Yes, you are right, its not about money. You certainly don't need alot of money to have a decent collection. BUT.... if you didn't spend good money to buy exceptional stock, have great stands that are the envy of the whole club, have a well stocked bonsai breifcase, full of masakuni tools and kilo's of wire, then unfortunatly your trees will never be considered art. Bottom line... money helps.

Kinder regards, Al Keppler

__________________
I been kidding the last seven years.
no.... really!

Andy, you said

"From what I've observed and discovered of good European bonsai, the standard is far above the North American standard due to the fact that Europeans tend to correctly characterize bonsai as an art form rather than just a hobby."

I don't see why characterizing bonsai as art makes it better necessarily or would lead to better bonsai from artists as opposed to the hobbiest. Put the artist on a $500 per year budget and give the hobbiest a helicopter and a couple of years to collect yamadori and I'd put my money on the hobbiest any day. You say that the hobbiest in the U.S are content to grow their bonsai in any old pot. That may be of necessity, not everyone has the money for those nicer pots and just to prove my point I'm willing to trade 10 of my cheap Chinese pots for 10 of your Tokoname.


I've often wondered what guys like Buford Ghondorff could do if given the time and raw material like some of the "artists" have to work with. Not that I think it's bad to buy expensive yamadori if one can afford it but you have to admit it puts one years ahead of the guy that's trying to grow it out from seedlings or nursery stock.

Al, I thought the "naturalistic" threads on IBC where great. While maybe not much info in the hands on sense it did get me thinking outside of the box. I would like to try more trees along the lines that Walter Pall is calling naturalistic, but there again that takes big trees and big pots and big bucks.

Tony

K.A. Rutledge

Hi Tony,

You wrote:
"Put the artist on a $500 per year budget and give the hobbiest a helicopter and a couple of years to collect yamadori ..."

...And the artist would still create art with what was at hand and the hobbyist (perhaps the wrong word - as it has rubbed some the wrong way and prevented my point from being understood) would have a collection of poorly styled, poorly displayed helicopter-carried "banzais"

Look, no matter how much money one pours into the endeavor of bonsai, unless one is concerned with artistic composition, artistic display, artistic concerns - period, one will not be contributing to the ART of bonsai. No, one does not need to do that to be "worthy" of growing trees in pots. My point has nothing to do with that. It is merely a point of fact that artists (rich ones or poor ones) contribute to art and those unconcerned with art do not. Plain and simple. Bonsai is not the practice of growing trees in pots. Bonsai is the art of creating art with trees in pots, displayed in an artistic manner, composed in an artistic manner, evocative manner, representational manner (whatever...), but always art first and foremost.

It does not have anything to do with snobbery or how much money one pours into the "hobby". It has to do with one's approach to the endeavor.

You wrote:
"I've often wondered what guys like Buford Ghondorff could do if given the time and raw material like some of the "artists" have to work with."

Well, unless the guy is an artist, he'll be doing what anyone could do, nothing more. The material is not the point (not "my" point anyway, but good material usually helps). The approach to the endeavor is the point, the concern for the art of bonsai is the point. If the goal is to have a healthy, somewhat miniturized tree growing in a pot, yes that takes skill, but bonsai is more than that by definition. I'm not trying to make the point that it is wrong to "merely" grow trees in pots with no further concerns. That's the point for many and can be fun to do. What I'm trying (unsuccessfuly?) to point out is that it is right to pursue the art to it full definition; to maintain bonsai as an art, to pursue excellence. Again, I try and make this point in answer to the question as to why European bonsai seems to be of a higher quality, on the whole. On average, they do, we (U.S.) don't.

As to your pot exchange proposal, I have no Tokoname pots ;-) Brand names are not at the heart of art.

Walter's "naturalistic" proposals are, IMO fine as they do not in and of themselves harm the art of bonsai, but I do not believe that they are necessary. They make no difference in the way bonsai are made or displayed, but give some people a more focused definition to use for describing some forms.

I sincerely hope that this helps to clear up some of the confusion (and get us off the class envy junk. That is a needless, worthless distraction from the substance of this discussion).

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

K.A. Rutledge

Hi Al,

I appreciated your last post. I was with you right up until the end where you wrote:
"BUT.... if you didn't spend good money to buy exceptional stock, have great stands that are the envy of the whole club, have a well stocked bonsai breifcase, full of masakuni tools and kilo's of wire, then unfortunatly your trees will never be considered art. "

Horse feathers. I wholeheartedly disagree with you. 1. Wonderful material for bonsai can be obtained at the local garden center for pennies on the bonsai dollar. 2. Masakuni tools are brittle and not worth half of the cost and make no difference in the work anyway. 3. Kilos of wire may be necessary if you have rows of trees to wire, but kilos of wire don't factor into art (enough wire may, however). 4. Good stands always help, but you've solved that problem, haven't you? ;-) 5. Envy of the club is worthless if one is not due to artistic results. Envy is not the point either.

I understand where you're going here, but the points you made along the way are non-sequiturs. Words mean things. Why not use the ones that have relevance to your point?

Your observations about unknown artists yet to be discovered is well taken. Sure, there are plenty out there. They do not, however, have to be "discovered" or take up the standard of leading the community - especially by becoming a headlining demo artist. That kind of stuff contributes nothing to bonsai. A life's work with credible results does. Teaching others does. There will always be unknowns who have talent, skill and who put forth wonderful work. It is not necessary that they become houshold names. What WOULD be good is if they work to change and further the widespread characterization of bonsai from plant cultivation to art form.
;-)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

bonsaial1

The reason I talked about the wire and tolls and stuff is to point to the fact that to get your trees noticed you seem to have to be a mover and shaker. What I'm saying is there seems to be a natural pecking order in society whenever you put 30 or 50 people into a room. The guy on a budget, the short guy the pimply faced guy, the guy that does not dress well. You may disagree but there is alot of snobery in bonsai. As I said i've collected other things and been in other clubs, and the same things happen there too. I guess I just need to know what the parameters are that makes a tree in a pot art and what makes a tree in a pot not art. If you can show me that either by drawing or photo's it would go along ways towards helping me see the differance. I am a simple guy, that in art terms, would rather have a Grant Wood or Remington than a Picasso or Monet. I just don't see all the fuss about Immpressionism or backwards heads. Obiviosly theres room for both.

__________________
I been kidding the last seven years.
no.... really!

Hi Al,

Sure, there's snobbery in every "group", especially in the art world. Pecking orders are a natural fact of human society. They don't necessarily have anything to do with quality or skill or talent, though, just popularity.

There is popular and there is good and sometime the two are recognized together and sometimes not. I wouldn't waste too much concern with whether or not my trees are "noticed" in a club or in the country or the bonsai world. Nothing wrong with it, but is that the best goal to shoot for?

You wrote:
"I guess I just need to know what the parameters are that makes a tree in a pot art and what makes a tree in a pot not art."

Don't we all! ;-) Heck, there are as many opinions on this matter as there are opinions on anything else. We're all learning this stuff. My concern is that one recognize first that there is a difference and then set about trying to define the differences - simple in the overall, difficult in the details (like anything worthwhile and deep).

As to your invitation to "show you" I can surely show you things that fall within the realm of my opionions and tastes, but there are plenty of cool resources on the web and in books of artistic examples of bonsai. I'd suggest the Takagi Museum at www.bonsaimuseum.org/e/index.html (be sure to click the link to past exhibits!) and any articles on display, pot selection and styling in Kindai Bonsai, Bonsai Today (maybe even TBE Journal at www.bonsaienthusiast.com ;-). However, recognizing art, artistic elements and such and then creating them with one's own trees are wholly different enterprizes. I know, I've tried, with meager success. ;-)

By the way, it's hard for me to believe that you don't understand artistic elements of bonsai - given that you build bonsai display stands. You gotta know something of art to do that!

Walter Pall is already bringing up "impressionism" in bonsai styling. I'd like to see the look on his face when someone shows him a bonsai with backwards heads. Ha!

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Andy, The money part has nothing to do with class envy. I mention it because it is a means, not to an end, but a means to good start. Even the artist doesn't have much of a chance if he can't afford good bonsai soil and his trees die from being planted in clay. And the guy that can afford to make a trip to the yamadori nursery has a much better chance of finding something worthwile than the guy making a trip to the garden center.

I agree that bonsai composition is an artistic endeavor and I suppose most hobbiest would agree with that statement. If you mean by "artist" one that has had years of formal training in the arts then yes it should be easier for him to create an artistic bonsai. There will always be many exceptions though, after all just because someone is an artist doesn't mean they are a good one. Much of this just seems like semantics to me. Whether one calls himself an artist or a hobbiest makes little difference in my books. I think it really comes down to ones God given abilites and that will show in his bonsai.

Tony

bonsaial1

Andy, I have alot of respect for you. After reading your last post I feel your a regular guy after all. I guess what really got my hackels up was the last line in the first post that said: "It is just fine if one wants to grow trees in pots any old way if that's what one wants to do- thats what's fun. But it is not conducive to quality bonsai."

My argument was that we do produce quality bonsai in America. I have only seen shows in Cal. I go to around 20 a year. the GSBF does a good job, and the bi-annual shohin show is wonderful, as well as the REBS show. I feel that these trees are shown with great artistic merit. I do understand artistic quality and that is why I'm so confused with your statement. Is there something that I am missing? What specificly has been lacking (IYO) in bonsai locally that you would like to see improved. Is this a regional thing. Or do you feel that folks like Naka, Hirao, Ragle, Gremmel, Rosade, Persiano, Shaner, Manikitavaport, Ishii, Imazuma, Makashima, Barrett, Harris, Cary, Nagatoshi, Kuo, Oki, Hill, Yamaguchi, well you get the idea, have somehow missed the bullseye just a little. If so, what needs to be fixed. I feel these folks have done a great job at presenting bonsai from an American perspective. I don't really know if it meets the criterion for art in the sense that you think it should. If it does not let me know, i am the first one to jump at being on the cutting edge of any of the things that I do in my spare time. Hell, I just spent 350.00 on a new planer so I can make my stands that much better.

I want to tell you a little story,,,, I'm sorry that I can't use names, but this is a small world. I belong to 4 bonsai clubs. One that I go to is in Hanford, Cal. There is a guy that is a dedicated bonsai artist. He recently won for JURIED art in the Hanford fair, for his penjing planting. He does penjing because it makes him happy. He does other bonsai as well, and does it well. He is a up and comer here in Cal. He was asked to do a penjing workshop at the Shohin show two years ago and did one of the workshops at the last GSBF convention in Woodland Hills. During his presentation at the convention, A Japanese fellow with considerable bonsai credentials was talking a little to loudly to his freind. He was overheard to say " what are we doing here watching this, this is not bonsai." I must tell you that the presenter had considerable money invested in material, travel expenses, hotel accom., etc. Now this rude gentleman may have felt this way, but I don't think that comment was conducive to quality bonsai.

Best regards, and happy holidays Bonsaial

__________________
I been kidding the last seven years.
no.... really!