Bonsai, Art, and the big picture

bonsaial1

In light of the other art thread, I wish to opine within my own thread. There can be no confusion as to the basis of my convictions that way.

It has been said that the discussion of art with bonsai is essential to the forward movement of the art. I don’t agree. Years before the Internet, books or TV there were art in bonsai. The pursuit of art in its creativity process is a human driver of emotion. Be it ego, passion, or creative outlet. We strive for perfection in all that we do.

But...we do it because we want to do it.

Walter Pall said this:
This sort of discussion is VITAL. It makes all the difference for now and the future of bonsai in the western world. We are in the middle of a bonsai revolution and most have not noticed it. This sort of debate is a clear sign of it. We are about to emancipate from bonsai as craft and practice it as art form. In Europe this happened about ten years ago. And an explosion in quality and genuine artistry followed. I can see the same happening in America now. I look forward to see the progress and I wish a similar dramatic explosion of quality bonsai would happen as in Europe.

Italy was NOT on the bonsai map fifteen years ago. It was an underdeveloped country. Now the whole of Italian bonsai artists beat the whole of America. Easily, left-handedly! It took them fifteen years only. But what caused this explosion? They were the first ones to have discovered that bonsai can be an art form. Italy had NO history of bonsai, no burden of tradition, any masters who would clap on fingers for wrongdoing. They just did it.

They just did it. humm... Did they all do it? Or maybe just a select few artists that had talent. I’ll bet there are many backyard bonsai practitioners in Italy as I pound these keys. I’ll even bet there may be many that do not even have a computer or Internet. Yet they still manage to practice bonsai, and continue on with their training. I’m sure they are equally as happy as anyone practicing bonsai anywhere in the world at any level.

Bonsai artistry is moving forward in America and abroad. It will move at its own pace. It cannot be made to move faster, and it cannot be rammed down the mouths of those that wish to do bonsai differently.

I have found that in any art form there will always be those that will be on the cutting edge of societal evolution. There will be the Walter Palls and the Masahiko Kimura’s. There will be many artists that will give to the unwashed masses, but there will not be a mass turning point of Bonsai Masters at any given point within a time period. The old ones die, and new ones take their place. We may have hundreds, but we certainly don’t have tens of thousands of bonsai masters. I am pretty sure we never will.

We can discuss artistry within bonsai but we should also appreciate the fact that there will always be those that wish to do something different within our hobby. They deserve the same respect, and should benefit from the same education. There are those that will take that education and make it work for them and there are those that will take what they learn and apply it to what they have. Be it sticks in pots or worthy stock it’s their choice and we have no right to judge their way.

If I may sidetrack here I will use Will as my example. I read what Will has posted in the last six months and it is almost scary the way the timeline for his bonsai education has gone. I read the things he writes and think, “ man, did he just go to the archives and rewrite what I wrote 3 years ago?” If Will was to lose his computer tomorrow, it would not stifle his eagerness or desire to attain artistic bonsai. He would do whatever possible to get the training he needed to manage his goal. Whatever that may be. Hopefully Will will read this and over the next six months will come to learn that “making sure that everyone is on the same page in bonsai is not necessary in the BIG PICTURE”

I have come to find this and it has made my life much easier. I'll do my thing, y'all do yours. At what ever pace makes you happy. It would be nice if some of you would post something once in a while, just so I know you are really doing bonsai and not just opining

Thanks, Al Keppler

__________________
It's about time that the proper respect be given to the fine art of balloon animals...

Advertisement

Walter_Pall

'This sort of discussion is VITAL'

Ok,

I can see that I have to clarify this. Vital for whom and for what?

Al has made it clear that it is not so vital for the art as a whole. And that it is not vital for the great masses of hobbyists. I agree.

What I meant is that it is vital for the small group of people who are very serious about bonsai. For those who are artists and want to be artists. For those who want to excel in bonsai. And also for those who will never excel as artists, but are keenly interested in the artform as collectors, critiques, politicians, vendors etc.. A very small percantage of the whole community, I agree. But I dare to say the really imortant part of the whole bonsai family.

Has Al not made it clear that art will go on with or without this discussion? He has tried to make it clear, but I disagree.

Why is it that in some quarters time seems to stand still. Why is it that in some circles bonsai is pracitsed exactly the way it was state of the art in the 1960ies. Why is it that people who are very eager to be regarded as artists cannot see over the fence of their ivory tower? Why is it that people who are or rather were big names in bonsai are so agressively against new developments in this art?

Why is it that one hears 'WE don't do that', 'This is not done', 'This is against the rules', 'I work with the rules (and I am superior because of this)', 'These guys don't do it THE RIGHT WAY', ' I am absolutely against this contemporary influence', 'Why do we have to import European juveniles to tell us what we have invented anyway?', 'Why should we fix what is not broken, why change bonsai when it is on it's zenith?', 'New developments in bonsai are new, but are they better?', 'How can these guys get away with insulting the Japanese tradition and even get applause from many Japanese?', 'How dare this jerk call a national treasure a fair piece of craft and implying that it is NOT art?
'How dare they call traditional bonsai oldfashioned' and on and on.

Well everyone can think of their own answers to these questions. I think that this sort of discussion will open many an eye. It has certainly opened mine. It has forced me to get my thinking straight. They have crucified me in these threads over the years. But I have learned to sort my thoughts.

Many will not want to see when their eyes are opened. Fine, how can one tell when a person gets old? When the person starts speaking how much better things wer in the old days, in the good old days, when there was no doubt about what was right or wrong in bonsai.

This sort of discussion is vital for those who are at the front edge or want to be there. It makes sure that bonsai is an art and not a craft. It makes sure that bonsai fundamentalists DO NOT HAVE THE SAY. It makes sure that there is no such thing as true or false, rigth or wrong in bonsai. Beacause it is an artform and not a craft.

I understand that the great majority of bonsai enthusiasts don't mind. Why should it be different in bonsai than in real life?

__________________
best regards
Walter Pall
http://walter-pall.de
I don't design bonsai, I design trees.
Tradition is not the custody of ashes but the propagation of fire.
NEW: The endless bonsai diary
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/

BrianBay9

I think Al's point is not that the discussion of art in bonsai is unneccessary, but that those ready for, and interested in such a discussion will find it, here or elsewhere. Granted, the internet makes it easier to include a broader group in the discussion.

Others will join the discussion when they are ready. I don't think we should get too worked up about everyone not keeping up. Someday I might even have something intelligent to say about art in bonsai! Until then, I can only do my best, and try to have fun with it.

Cheers
Brian

Will_Heath

Walter,

Once again you cut right to the chase.

I often am chastised (crucified) for speaking my mind on the art of bonsai because I have not yet achieved great bonsai. Yet, I feel as someone who wished to advance in the art, I have a unique perspective from a novice standpoint.

When someone like yourself speaks about art, I listen, you Walter have created world class bonsai and continue to do so, what better source could one have for information or for inspiration?

These discussions are vital to me because I am forming the mindset that will be with me for years, the mindset that will show though in my bonsai, in my art.

What I don't understand is why such threads are attacked so readily. Why those who feel such conversations are vital are not allowed to discuss art by those who feel such discussions are a waste of time.. Even before the internet, people met, traveled, exchanged ideas, that is how bonsai spread from country to country in the first place. To suggest that there were no such discussions before the internet, is ridiculous.

Such attacks and nay saying are in fact detrimental to the art of bonsai, take myself for example, when I finally decide that discussing art is too much of a hassle here, I lose, my learning on that subject stops here. The excellent comments made by you, Vance Wood, and others there will cease to exist and bonsai as a craft will be the only discussion to read.


Will

mike_p

Walter says, "Why is it that one hears 'WE don't do that', 'This is not done', 'This is against the rules',"

Reminds me of my old friend, the late Bobbi Burr. I would be doing something to a tree and she would say, "But Mike. that's just never done". And I would reply with logic she couldn't refute: "Bobbi, everything that is now done was once never done".

Mike

__________________
Learning the mechanics of bonsai is a matter of rote. Over and over again the processes are practiced until the hands and eyes know the moves.
Learning the art of bonsai may be more like water wearing away a stone, or climbing a mountain where the peak is always shrouded in fog and just out of reach.
Persist, and someday you may see the peak in sunshine. You may pick up the stone and it's a thing of beauty.

MP@BBB Studio

Will_Heath

He is entitled to his opinion as we all are.

Is not display stands and placing them properly also an art form? I think Al thinks anything not pertaining to exactly what he wishes to talk about is unnecessary.

Those who wish to discuss art have as much right to do so as those who wish to discuss carpentry.


Will

Will_Heath

Thank you.


You are quite correct, however do I not have the right to post what I think and feel as you do?


Check my posts, from collecting, to accents, to Mame, to bonsai, one thing I do is post Al. I also write a lot of articles here and on other forums, I chime in with advice on subjects I know and do what I can for the forums I belong to. I volunteer at my club, maintain their web page, and throw in a few fictional humorous stories to lighten up the mood occasionally. I have 120 trees in various stages of development and 500 pines in the ground....

Trust me buddy, I'm doing bonsai.



Will

bonsaial1

Walter, Most of the great advancements in bonsai has come from paradigm shifts. Great thrusts in advancements of not reinventig the wheel so to speak, just vastly improving what is being currantly done.

In another thread, Will talked about not trying to reinvent the wheel. While that saying goes along way, I can remember driving on bias ply tires. I can see the paradigm shifts in the ways the wheel has been improved as the years rolled by.

It was also said in my article about guy wires that, "well Al, thats the way they used to do it in the old days". Thankfully some bright man came along and thought of a better way to train branches. The same with Masahiko Kimura. His technique has brought a paradigm shift to the currant setting of bonsai that will be quite the norm in the future. Hamano may have givin him his education, but Masahiko's drive for wanting something different and better made him the man he is today.

I remember when you came to Fresno during the 2003 covention. You came to a club meeting and critiqued some trees there. During my internship into the realm of bonsai artistry, I was moving in ways that were not enjoyed by the group. What I wanted to do for the yearly display were poo pooed, and my talks of display and exhibit prep were thought to be something that was there to read in wanted but had no place in this club. I remember one member in particular and the conversation you had. You asked him of a branch that you felt needed to be removed. He said that he had been thinking about that too. You asked when he thought he may remove it. He said he is still thinking about it. You asked how long have you been thinking about it? he replied: 30 years!

Will, I think in light of Ron,s last post and some of the personal feeling he has written of, he brings up some valid points. All Ron wants to now is what makes a bonsai artistic. Also, what makes a bonsai artistic from anyone's point of view. I see many virtuals done to plants here all the time as do you. When I see the virtuals I think, what planet are they from. Do they actually think the improved the plant. Its all about improving. Just changing a plant with a virtual into another form does not improve it. It may even ruin it.

Artistry in bonsai is done through example not by writing. I think everyone here gets it. At least those that wish to get it. Talking about art in bonsai requires finesse. You have to know who your audiance is. They are not captive.

My use of the word amatuer in the Monterey thread was obviously the wrong choice of words for someone like HeyMikey. The size of that room was only large enough to display about 10 trees. The club had about 27 in there. I know full well how a proper display should look like. This was a club, and they owe it to its members to get everyones tree in the show. I understand that. It is not right for me to just post pictures of the exhibit and then tell everyone how poor it was and the the displays were crowded, and the use of accents was poor and the scrolls were in the wrong positions. I would rather say that this is an amatuer club event and was displayed as such, I expected no more, was delighted in the trees, and had a good time. END OF STORY.

Yet there are those that don't see it that way. We want to fixate on one word, turn it into a pissing match and bring the wrong conclusions to the front.

Your work will dictate your expertise, your artistry, and your reputation. Anything else is just fluff.

__________________
It's about time that the proper respect be given to the fine art of balloon animals...

bonsaial1

Will, you seem to think I signed up on this forum yesterday. I have been through this whole art mess years ago. I went thru this with Andy Rutledge in 2001 and years beffore that on another forum. I am on the "exact" same page as you are. What you are missing is that this art thing will always be met with resistance, Why make a big deal out of it. Continue to do your work, share it with others, reinforce when necessary and move on.

Unless of course you enjoy the fray and find this as entertaining as I do, then by all means keep it up, I will be here for ya.

BTW, I think Jim was referring to "the Art of Bonsai project " when he mentioned another forum. Remember you will get no argument there This place boasts many points of view, the main reason I felt no need to go anywhere else. Even with all the hullabaloo, there are those that will get it. Heck, even BadByte managed to get it inspite of this forum



Carefull Will, I know there are some shifty charcaters here that may call this "gardening".

__________________
It's about time that the proper respect be given to the fine art of balloon animals...