Bonsai Appraisal - bonsaiTALK Community

31-Jan-2004	#1
Little Arborist Plain old lil'tree novice Join Date: Jan-2004 Location: East Bay Area, California Country: U.S.A. USDA Zone: 10a or 9b AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 86	Bonsai Appraisal In the tree industry there are forms and formulas for tree appraisal. Has anyone heard of a similar concept for bonsai? __________________ Steve, Inquisitive Newbie. Certified Bonehead Worm Herder

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31-Jan-2004	#2
TreeBay Tips:5¢ Advice:Free *MODERATOR GROUP* Join Date: Aug-2001 Location: Silicon Valley Country: USA USDA Zone: 9 AHS Heat Zone: 4 Posts: 9,745	Well, you can put it up on eBay - and figure it is worth somewhere between 1/10 and 10 times the auction's closing price, if it were sold in person on the open market. Unfortunately there are no formula for art. Regards, Matt __________________ Want to be a seller on bonsaiAUCTIONS? Get authorized today! bonsaiTALK: Over 100,005.36 Megabytes Served this Month!

31-Jan-2004	#3
K.A. Rutledge Guest Posts: n/a	Steve, Can't be any such animal in bonsai. Bonsai is art; valuation of bonsai is subject to a host of subjective criteria, which cannot be accounted for on a "form." Many aspects of quality can certainly be accounted for, but that is only one small part of the "proper" value of a bonsai. If you were to come across a form or formula to place monetary value on paintings and sculpture and musical compositions, and paintings and sculpture and musical compositions were transitory and ephemeral, you could use the same form for bonsai. But then, you'd wake up. ;-) Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm zone 8, Texas

1-Feb-2004	#4
Little Arborist Plain old lil'tree novice Join Date: Jan-2004 Location: East Bay Area, California Country: U.S.A. USDA Zone: 10a or 9b AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 86	I agree with those concepts, but I still find myself wondering... Does anyone have their bonsai insured? __________________ Steve, Inquisitive Newbie. Certified Bonehead Worm Herder

1-Feb-2004	#5
Little Arborist Plain old lil'tree novice Join Date: Jan-2004 Location: East Bay Area, California Country: U.S.A. USDA Zone: 10a or 9b AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 86	I site as an example the Bonsai vandalism link below in the Related Threads. How can it be reasoned objectively that $80,000 damage was done? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious how it works. __________________ Steve, Inquisitive Newbie. Certified Bonehead Worm Herder

1-Feb-2004	#6
RonMartin(deceased) Bonsai nare-do-well Join Date: Jan-2003 Location: Summerville SC Country: USA USDA Zone: 8A AHS Heat Zone: 8 Posts: 4,653	Artistic value and actual value are not always the same. Most of the time there is a great difference between the two. At one time my collection was just covered under my household insurance. A couple of times they paid out for storm damage and have on occasion reimbursed me for stolen trees. (yes that does happen even in the small town that I live in) The amount paid was set by the price it would cost to replace them. Pictures were sent of the trees to several legitimate bonsai shops. They set the replacement value and I was paid somewhere in the middle. Now that my collection has grown and become a bit more valuable the insurance company has written a special policy on it. I will have to keep detailed pictures and records on them. The insurance company is requiring me to put a 6 foot fence around them with a locking gate. If something happens to the trees again I would imagine that the prices for them will be handled much the same as before. But this would be the actual value. Artistic value would be a different matter. Here it is what you think it is worth. You may be the only one that thinks so. Hopefully someone does agree and will pay you what you think it is worth. Actual value has standards, artistic value does not.

1-Feb-2004	#7
Jay YOU CAN NOT RUSH TIME Join Date: Sep-2001 Location: Jeffersonville Vt Country: USA USDA Zone: 4 AHS Heat Zone: 3 Posts: 2,154	Steve, Don't forget as Art, the artist is also important for perceived value. If you have a piece of Art, say a tree, the value it has will be determined by its linage. Two trees that may look extremely similar in appearance will be valued differently. The tree that is by 'Steve' or 'Jay' although having value would be worth more if it was owned by 'Steve or Jay' but recently styled by say Walter Pall. It would be worth even more if it was owned by him. This is my opinion, based on what I've seen.....and you know, the concept has merit! Jay __________________ A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49... Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

1-Feb-2004

Bart Thomas(deceased)

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Re: Bonsai Appraisal

Quote:

Originally posted by Little Arborist
In the tree industry there are forms and formulas for tree appraisal. Has anyone heard of a similar concept for bonsai?

A good beginning would be David deGroot's book (Help me out folks!) which deals with bonsai design and has sample judging checklists in the back. That would give a formal basis for appraising the quality.

As for value, you'ld have to find comparable trees that have been sold. Not easy. If I felt that I had my collection appraised, I'd ask someone who has been selling trees of comparable quality for years.

Just to complicate things, price does not necessarily indicate value. The IRS test of a willing buyer and a willing seller has to be the best.

A well-known bonsai expert friend was in China not long ago, on a private tour. They saw a magnificent ficus. He described it as one of the finest trees he had ever seen. Someone asked if it was for sale. The answer was, yes, for $80,000. Not wanting to offend by saying "no", the owner simply asked twice what the tree was worth.

(Sorry, I do NOT have a picture of the tree, but you can get a beginning by thinking of some of Ed Trout's finest.)

1-Feb-2004	#9
Little Arborist Plain old lil'tree novice Join Date: Jan-2004 Location: East Bay Area, California Country: U.S.A. USDA Zone: 10a or 9b AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 86	Wow, this turned out to be an interesting discussion. (For me at least) Bottom line appears to be that comparative value holds true as an industrial standard, but can be overridden at any time by perceived value. That seems overly simplistic, but it makes sense. No different than many other comodities I suppose, especially those of an artistic nature. For my part, I do not look at bonsai as a commercial endeavor so much as an enjoyable hobby and art form, just want to make that part clear. After touring a local bonsai nursery and seeing the prices I ended up curious though. As a new beginner to bonsai, the issue is far from important to me so far, but in the short term any bonsai I do create or aquire will be fairly accesible and unprotected. Thanks all for the input. __________________ Steve, Inquisitive Newbie. Certified Bonehead Worm Herder

2-Feb-2004	#10
bonsaial1 Bonsai Doer Join Date: Aug-2001 Location: Fresno, CA Country: USA USDA Zone: 9 AHS Heat Zone: 13SH Posts: 5,449	One more fly in the ointment. How about this to ponder... The tree you create that becomes that wonderfull masterpiece. You show it and it is seen by many people. The value is placed and the insurance company writes a special "rider policy" for your effort. The bonehead comes in and robs your house. They creep mysteriously to the backyard and see your tree with a six foot fence around it. They decide that it must have some value. They steal it and you are heart broken. It gets turned in to the insurance company, who decides to pay you for your plant, less deductable. Twelve months later your insurance premium goes sky high due to your insignificant (to them) loss of prize tree. Deductable goes up, and you have the added burdon of the increased insurance for who knows how long. oh yea..original cost to make masterpiece 100.00 bucks. Is it worth all the headaches? Al Keppler,( who's 1200.00 dollar tool loss last year, that they paid 600.00 dollars on and raised my deductable to 1000.00 instead of 500.00, and doubled my premium as well. I would have been money ahead to not turn it in. live and learn.) Wait a minute.. I think I remember Matt saying he needed the cord for a sawzall or something..maybe I should turn this over to the detective.... __________________ If committing suicide by gas...please press or say one now If committing suicide by gun...please press or say two now If you are unsure on a way of committing suicide..please press or say three or stay on the line for further options...

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