Big Silly Question

RonMartin(deceased)

Jim et all

First let me take everyone back to the beginning of this thread. I did say that I was just asking a question. Sometimes a question is just a question. I have no intention of re-inventing the wheel. It does seem to roll on quite nicely without my interference.
In the back of my mind I did have an ulterior motive for asking the question though.
From time to time I am asked to do a demo. Nothing big time, certainly not a major convention or even a regional convention. Club stuff mostly. Maybe one day the big time ;o)
When I walk up in front of the group I often wonder what they expect to see. Just why are they there.
Did not figure asking them that question would be a good way to start off my presentation.
" Hello my name is Ron Martin, now just what the heck did you want to see"
A funny start but not a way to get invited back.
But if I posed the question here I might get some feed back that I could use. The list is full of bonsai people after all. Might just learn something.
I did learn that (and I am not too sure this is true) a demo at a major event is expected to be a show. As Jim said a "PT Barnum affair". Bedazzle and entertain. The audience for the most part does not expect the tree to survive. Take your chances if you win the raffle.
I am not talking about anything here except the audiences expectations. Just what they expect to walk away with and talk about till the next convention.
I do hope that I am wrong in this but I bow to this audience. Or at least to those of you that attend the conventions. You, after all, pay the bucks to see the show and you should get what you want.
I don't blame those that stand up on the podium for this. They are, after all, paid employees of the convention. They do their best in the allotted time with the material supplied. And they do try to give the audience what they expect. Most of the time everyone is happy.
No I am not saying that conventions are bad. No I am not saying that the artist at these things are rip and run artists. No one is a fool to attend them.
But I do wonder what would happen if things were changed a bit. If the audience expected just a bit more than just a show.
One day I fully expect to see Andy and Jim's names on the list of artists at one of these things. Will they be there to entertain. Will they care if their material survives the beating they give it.
I have met both of them on more than one occasion. I don't claim to know them very well but I just can't imagine them standing up there to just do a show.
Will they just go with the flow or will they try to do the best possible of jobs. Will they tell their audience they might have killed the tree or just take the check and go home.
Will they take the demo out of the Big Top and make an art form out of it.
Time will tell.
Before a lot of you get on me about this please remember that my tong was firmly planted in my cheek during most of this. But it is something to think about.

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Jay

Ron, I got to tell you... I like your train of thought. Let me give you (and everyone) something else to think about.

If the Artist doing the demo has no regard for the tree, if it lives or dies is no concern, the Artist will do things that are not possible to be done, but there will be a 'show'.

If the Artist is doing the demo with the desire for the tree to live, but is possible doing to much so as to give the audience their monies worth, the audience will see a Master at Work. The tree with proper handling.....COULD..... live.

I think there is a difference! I hope there is a difference. I still think it is proper for the Artist to say.. I know you will be bidding on my tree, but it has been stressed to the limit, or something like that to at least imply the tree has a snowballs chance in hell to make it!

Rewind back.... many a person has been turned off by Bonsai... they buy or are given as gifts trees that are already dead (Mallsai Junipers etc). Do we need to add to this list the people who purchase demo material?

I have learned that I should NOT buy any demo trees, and not spend to much on raffles for demo trees.....
There are onlt so many snowballs that make it!

Jay

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RonMartin(deceased)

Thank you Jay

Treebeard

Jay, I agree with your particular slant on this whole issue.

This issue is similar to the virtual image issue that gets raised every now and then. You know, the argument about "yeah it looks good, but its not really feasible, is it?

To take the show thing further, if the stage(d) show is just that, and the audience know the tree will die, why bother to use a real live tree anyway? Why not just go out to the woods and lop of a promising looking branch off any old tree and bolt it to a styling bench? If we all know the show is a 'fake' anyway, why bother with proper potensai?

I just can't see myself getting sucked into enjoying any show where the techniques being employed are just to cause oohs and aahhs, and are employed with total disregard to the mortality of the material.

2p worth...

Regards,

TB

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RonMartin(deceased)

Good thoughts TB

RonMartin(deceased)

The difference is in the closing statements of the artist

bnsaijim

The loaded question "Will the tree live?" has been asked several times at demos I've attended. Definitely damned if you do and damned if you...

TB-

The goal is not "the show" per se- I don't think entertainment is ever the express purpose. As I somewhat facetiously pointed out there are at least two different flavors- "technique" and "design".

Design simply makes for much better entertainment because hopefully by desert but definitely by after-dinner cocktail rounds we have something wonderous to oggle over. The raffle committee can then relieve our wallets of excess heft in that narrow window between when our beer goggles are in full filter mode and our bodies begin the hotel food rejection process...

Now how the heck are you gonna raffle off a stump?

One of the best demos I've seen was by Dennis Makashima on a boxwood. He took off about 30% of the branching because the history of the tree was unclear, laid out out the training goals for the next 5 years and left it to the raffle winner to carry out the vision and keep the tree alive... I think I learned more in that 90 minutes than all other sessions combined...

Jim
TX

Tony

Maybe if they started out with a sword swallowing act followed by the bonsai demo and finished up with the lion tamers then everyone would know they were under the big top. You could even work in a few clowns through the bit.

I think Jay makes a good point about a good bonsai artist wanting to keep the tree alive and not doing more than the tree can take. In my opinion that should be the main goal. Making the best design out of what you are given to work with. That's kind of my whole approach to bonsai. Slow, deliberate, and for God's sake keep it alive. Of course, sometmies I fail but that is my goal.

I find no benefit in a "show" that winds up killing the tree. What would you really learn anyway? If the experts want to put on a styling show it's no sweat off my back. I just think they need to be up front about what it might do to the long term health of the tree. You shouldn't have to whisper about it in the corner of the room. If they aren't big enough to point out that what they are doing to the tree just might kill it then they have truly taken bonsai to a new level of illusion.

Tony

bonsaial1

Ron, Jim, Tony, Jay, Chris, and any others that have been doing bonsai for more then 2 years. Each of you knows darn good and well just what limits can be put on material and still expect it to live. I would bet each of you that if this were your own personal stock, that the techniques would not be applied in the rapid fire succesion that must be applied at a demo.

People that come to the demo want to see the tree finished and in the pot. I don't know why but that is the concensus. If the tree is left in a state of unfinished, the audiance is left wondering if the artist just did not know what to do with it, like "maybe if it grew for 5 more years I could do something with it"

People have grown acustomed to seeing guys like Kimura, Walter, Marc, get this wild stock and turn it into magic before our eyes. Anything less diminishes the artistic ability of the demo artist. Wow, "I wonder if Kimura would have been able to make something out of that, this guy said we need to stop here because the health of the tree may in danger."

Watch what they do in the styling and designing arena, take it home with you, apply slowly to your own stock, and watch the tree come alive. Key word: alive.

Bonsai-al

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