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15-Apr-2003
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#11 | |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Quote:
--------------- Hi Ron, Sorry, but I'm not sure where the confusion is. Your experience is that most of the demo trees don't live long and my experience is that nearly all do fine. This means nothing for us, it just means that we each (you, me, Fred, Jay, Tony, Paul, etc...) have seen somthing different be the probable outcome of a demo. It means nothing more than this. I would observe, however, that there are clearly artists who are regular demonstration artists who have more regard for the tree's health and those who have less regard for the tree's health. Surely their own concerns are revealed in the results (sometimes). But as I said, there can be all kinds of factors that can contribute to the death of any tree, as we all know. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge zone 8, texas http://www.bunjindesign.com/bonsai/ |
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15-Apr-2003
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#12 |
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Bonsai nare-do-well
 
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Thanks for the clarification Andy.
Every one has an opinion on this subject. Nothing wrong with that. The answers that I have received so far have been very useful. Might change the way I do things a bit. Nothing drastic but I think that the demonstrators need to communicate a bit better with the audience. Tell them a bit more about what they are doing and explain the chances they might be taking with the tree. The audience also needs to have realistic expectations. Any time a tree is taken from raw stock to "finished" product in just a couple of hours there will be a change that something will go wrong. Just so much can be done in a short time without taking chances. |
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15-Apr-2003
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#13 |
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Banned 08JUN2005
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I've found several of the replies to Ron's question quite interesting, but I'm left with one of my own. Granting the point that demonstration artists will sometimes (or often) "overwork" the trees they use for demonstration, is there some way other than the much maligned ingrediant of experience to get across to relative newcomers the time scale that most bonsai practitioners are working in? Other than ridiculing newcomers as being naive or passe when they bring up the question of how old a tree is, I don't ever remember much effort at all being made at any of the several shows, or even the classes I've taken, at communicating the sort of time frame that our trees should be viewed in, or how to properly major and minor operations on our trees. I remember on another site some very helpful comments by a guy named Vince Hanna that really helped me to view the time dimension differently and begin to have a basic concept of the time frame I should be thinking in. Styling techniques are very important, but there's more to Bonsai than that. Alot more!
Fred |
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15-Apr-2003
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#14 |
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Bonsai nare-do-well
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Fred
It would be hard to cover everything that should be covered at a convention demo. Those things that you are asking about are better left to the classroom. That is if one can find a real classroom. It is a pity that most classes are also short affairs. Mostly the "come whack up a juniper " sort of affair. The names of several good bonsai "schools " do come to mind. But chances are you don't live close to one. The are not all that common. The market just won't support them. Maybe one day but just now now. For now I am afraid most of us will just have to plug on and make mistakes till we finally figure it out ;o( |
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16-Apr-2003
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#15 |
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Bonsai nare-do-well
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Thought I would share part of a message that I received from one of the more notable bonsai artist on this subject. It, for me at least seemed to put everything in the right order.
Any way thanks to all that had an input. The comments that I received gave me much to think about. Ron *************** Possible reasons: * The demonstrator is more interested in glory than in good sense. * The demonstrator does not understand the climatic idiosyncrasies of the area * The material was not in good health (organizers tend to buy the cheapest). * The work is done out of season. * The winner does not have the appropriate aftercare facilities. * The winner does not have the experience to care for the tree after stress. Apart from the first possibility, all others are either directly or indirectly the responsibility of the organizers of said demonstration. |
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16-Apr-2003
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#16 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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Ron,
How does one go about changing a system that no one particular person created- that has evolved over time and represents the unique contribution of the West to bonsai? I've almost 40 years of bonsai rags on my shelf- it's interesting to see the evolution- no Internet, no pots, no books. A few lone teachers of substance and some "newsletters" where folks would write (on a typewriter, mind you!) their experiences with this or that tree , oft accompanied by a grainy xerox of a bad photo of some scrawny twig grown in a drilled out ash tray or candydish. Look at the ads for "conventions" back then... Mr. Myron Stummplflemeir will show us repotting techniques for the Chinese Elm- "101 ways to rootprune" followed by Ms. Edith Krabople's vs. Sally Milford-Johnson in a live action battle "Wiring or Clip and Grow". Thank the LORD for the ROBINSON and his chainsaw massacre! Is the "PT Barnum demo" necessarily such a bad thing? What hapened to "let the buyer beware"? "Don't try this at home, kids..." People don't need to know how to make a brush stroke to paint, that clay has memory to make a pot. We have an inner muse screaming inside that must be sated. We need a show, not Ms. Krabople's technique! We've paid dues dagummmit! ;^) Jim TX |
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16-Apr-2003
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#17 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Amen Jim! You go, boy!
Kind regards, Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas http://www.bunjindesign.com/bonsai/ |
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17-Apr-2003
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#18 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Chief
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Demo Trees
Just an observation.
The demo tree is not a class for learning but more likely a sacrifice to the novices of bonsai. Unless the tree falls into the hands of a person who understands how to properly care for over worked and badly stressed material there is a very good chance that the tree won't make it. As to a novice going home and beating up one of his or her own trees, just attending a show will cause people to go home and work on there trees. The show demonstration is an important part of Bonsai as it inspires people, stimulates them to try new ideas, causes them to look at new posibilities. Here are some facts as I see them. You have good and bad demonstraters. You have experianced and inexperianced care givers. Some trees will live and some will not. If your demonstration causes a person to go out and try to learn about bonsai or try some new techniques. If people get excited about bonsai or catch the bonsai bug, then I think that your demonstration has been a success even if it has been the sacrifice of your demo material. Glenn Van Winkle
__________________
ripsgreentree It requires an open hand to give and to recieve. |
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17-Apr-2003
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#19 |
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Recovering Workaholic
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For us normal people, the question of whether or not the 200 year old juniper that some famous bonsai artist uses in a demo survives is insignificant. Those of us who do demos for local garden clubs, library programs, etc. can choose how to work on_a tree. I'm doing such a program for our local library in a couple of weeks, and I'm using a procumbens juniper I used in a demo a couple of years ago. It's in a mica pot, and has already gone through one root pruning. It's probably going to become a cascade-style tree, so it's likely I'll give it only a light root pruning. If I were using a raw piece of nursery stock I might choose not to pot it. The average audience, I have found, will easily get bored with watching someone clean out the potting soil from the root ball. What they're really interested in is the styling of the plant.
Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a
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I'm not finished yet, neither are my trees. |
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17-Apr-2003
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#20 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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Glen,
Many good points! I think that the "teaching" demo espoused by Craig and Ron- topical, geared for a specific audience, using healthy material, certainly is important. Even though we know the magician's work is an illusion, we still go to see it and, caught up in teh moment, experience the same child-like awe as if it was "Real". I did bonsai for many years on my own with books. My first demo was by Dan Robinson. I was awestruck at the new possibilities. While part of me knew it was an "illusion" another small voice said if I got to that level I could work that fast too. But now I "know better" or rather my tastes have changed. I do not fault Dan- he is a wonderful entertainer and a pioneer. He has his own "Style" and "vision" which he injects into every piece he creates. I hope to be able to do half the collecting he does when I'm his age. This type of demonstration, more than anything, allows enjoyment of the "bonsai process". It is more akin to dinner theater. The new tree is not a "bonsai". It is potensai, an illusion... If it lives, wonderful - it has a pedigree. If not it's inspiration lives on through photos and phoenix grafts... Many of us out there can do the same thing, given the material, but they are "on the spot" - that's the fun of it. Let's see old Waldo get out of this one! The artist gets to stretch his artistic muscles. It's usually not someone's personal tree (until after the raffle) so there's little risk... Not bad RIPS... a sacrifice on the Altar of Inspiration... Jim TX |
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