Big Silly Question

RonMartin(deceased)

From time to time I like to pose a question. One that is meant to provoke comments, and at the same time make people think a bit about what they are doing.

Mind you it is only a question. Don't read more into it than that. It is not a slam, nor am I saying that I am the only one that does bonsai the right way. It is just a question. Nothing more.

At almost every bonsai show/convention there is a demo. The tree done here is almost always raffled off. It is usually done by a highly respected artist. The guru of bonsai if you will. The demonstrator is supposed to know what he is doing. A master of the art so to speak. They stand up in front of the audience and tell us, with all the authority they can muster, how to do bonsai. What makes it beautiful, how to succeed if only we use what they teach us.

These guys write the books, win the awards and get paid good money to do the demo. They are the tops in their field. They are the basis of our knowledge. We listen raptly.

The winner of the raffle is almost always a knowledgeable bonsai person. That is the kind of people that these things usually attract. The problem is that the loss rate on these demo trees is appalling. A good portion of them are what a friend of mine refers to as firewood.

So why is this the case.?

Are the demonstrators overworking the trees? Is the winner of the raffle almost always doing something wrong? Just who is responsible for killing all these trees?

As one that occasionally stands in at the podium I would like to hear some thoughts on this. The answer might just change how I do things. I am willing to learn.

Any comments? I am listening!

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Jay

Hi Ron... Great subject!

As a novice with only 3-4 years under my belt my answer to your question is based on my observations and my ears (Listening to thoughts of others).

I believe the trees that are styled at these demos and that are not potted in Bonsai containers or are not even root worked have a much better rate of making it. The shock of having both the roots and the trunk/branches worked on is very often too much for the tree. I, personally, would not even buy a raffle ticket for a tree that was worked both above and below soil line.

Secondly, I think some of the stock used for the demos are not container grown for enough time. I think any tree, styled by ANYONE that did not have time to adjust to its container is asking for trouble.

Third, there is always the possibility that the aftercare just isn't right!

Last, to use that ols saying......Sh@t Happens!

If I had to give the four possibilities above weight I say 60-20-10-10.

Just my feelings!

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Earl

I think Jay has nailed much of the problem--overworking, especially the roots. I have seen presenters that are talking away, demonstrating root cutting and the poor tree is out of soil and moisture for way too much time. Most of my reading and experience also says that when you take a huge tree (demos are always HUGE trees!) you have to go through several pottings to reduce the roots slowly. The demos take a tree that takes 4 people to lift and prceed to cut roots down to a small pot in one whack. Too much.

I would add another: for some reason, most of the shows I have been to (Portland, Seattle, Oakland) are in the fall. It is totally the wrong time to work on most species. Add that to the overworking and you have a dead tree.

Earl

FredL

Ron, I was surprised when I saw this. When I was in a club in the SF Bay area, we had an annual show. Our club Sensei (How he LOVED that title! And how I hate to admit it - He really was very good at what he did) would work his magic on a tree - usually a Shimpaku Juniper - on the afternoon of the second day and create a tree of wondrous beauty from an ugly, shaggy bush. I saw a couple of these trees 2 or 3 vyears later and both were in great shape. Now, I hasten to add, he and his assistant would NEVER touch the roots; when the tree was raffled, it was understood, it was to be repotted the following Spring.

This brings to mind a question: Is it generally best practice to style rough material that is growing well in, say, a grow box, and then waiting for several months or a year to do the heavy root work associated with initial potting in a Bonsai Pot? I have been thinking in terms of keeping my rough material in grow boxes until they are well established, then rough shaping them, then letting them rest until they seem quite vigorous before putting them in bonsai pots. I am imagining anormal period of 3-4 years beteen collection and bonsai pot and often longer than that. I'm also imagining heavy initial styling and repotting as normally taking place at different times, at least a few months apart.

I'd certainly welcome your (or anybody's) comments.

Fred

K.A. Rutledge

Hi Ron,

I think your premise is anecdotal. You've apparently seen lots of demo trees die and so you ask your question. However, I've seen only one of the two dozen or so demo trees I've seen die - less than 5% of them. I or others might well ask "Why do almost no demonstration trees die?"

So, I think that this question has to have a basis in one's own experience and is not necessarily one that is true for all of us - no matter each of our answers.

Given that a demo tree dies, it has to be due to any number of factors; poor skill by the artist, poor condition of the tree beforehand, lack of species knowledge of the artist, poor aftercare, poor weather after, unforeeable events, etc...

Anyway, interesting question, just not necessarily applicable to everyone's experience.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
http://www.bunjindesign.com/bonsai/

RonMartin(deceased)

So what is your point Andy. Do I only got to demos where the trees die.
Is the dozen or so that you have been to representative of what goes on.
Just what are you saying ?

bonsaial1

A better question might be: What is 'your' point Ron?


The demo is the point. If the tree lives, thats just a bonus. The point of the demo is for the artist to dazzle us with his expertise in designing bonsai. If all the conditions are peak, then the tree living should be not to much of a problem. The answer given by Andy was right on the mark, as to all the things that could go wrong with a demo tree that is raffled off after the demo.

I know that in the contest thread there was bantor that we need to, as part of the contest show the tree 6 months later and show that we kept it alive. This contest in many respects is just what goes on with a demo tree. Sometimes more techniques are applied to the stock then it can take at one sitting.

Sometimes they just give up..nature of the beast..I don't think it necessarily reflects bad on the demo artist. His function was to make something beautiful with the material offered, not keep it alive.

Just my opinion, Al

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pdbbonsai

Overheard at a demo:


"Wow, it is amazing that you can literally shred the bejeezus outta that little tree and it will live"........


or does it? Not for just the actual demo tree, but for the ones that are tried at home by one of the audience members. For example.

I for one would like to think that by watching a person turn something beautiful outta a large shrub is brilliant, however, I really do as an audience member think that keeping it alive "should be the point".....for when I go home and try it myself. It would be a little discouraging to me, that if I followed to a "T" the procedure in the demo, and gave it all the horticultural treatment it needs, it didnt live. I know I should be at least in knowledge of the best practice to keep it alive. However some of the demonstrations do go to extremes, leaving to believe that a tree could take that much styling and still live. I have seen a half dozen or so demos, and I am willing to bet that more than half had to much done to it, past the point of it being able to make it thru.

Paul

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Tony

Ron said: "Are the demonstrators over working the trees"

You betcha they are Ron.

This has been been one of my pet peeves for a while now. It's the same in books too. This is why we get newbie questions like: I got a nursery juniper and cut off all the bottom roots [all the feeder roots] so I could fit it in the bonsai pot just like in the book. Now my tree is dying and turning brown. what do I do to save it?

If an expert wants to do a demo to show what can be accomplished style wise with a tree that's fine with me but they need to make sure it's perfectly clear that this isn't the way to train bonsai. They cram all of it into one afternoon when it should be carried out over a few years time. I think it's their responsibility to point this out. Otherwise people are going to run home and do the same thing and lose alot of trees in the process.

2 or 3 cents worth.

Tony