Bald cypress stump

sauce

Hi Dale, I respect your experience and knowledge regarding bonsai but I must question your root rot theory. I don't believe that a BC can develop root rot, quite simply they grow in water and swamps. I know this because I work in water filled swamps full of huge, old BC. Maybe in a potted environment this would not be an ideal set up but to say they will develop root rot seems a little far fetched to me. Mine are in nursery pots with top soil and I keep them soaked as much as possible. They are in wet and thick mucky soil and they do just fine. I may be wrong but I believe the opposite, they "tolerate" soil but love muck and water.

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Bonsaifreak

I really appreciate everybody's input.

I've heard different opinions about the best environment for BC in prior discussions. I would asume that the possibility of root rot during dormancy makes sense but I don't think anybody would argue about the fact BC likes to live in moist soil. I'm not planning on taking it out of the nursery pot nor do any root work for now. We rarely have frosts during the winter in this area. If we were to get any, I contemplate bringing my tropicals for a day or two inside my well ventilated and lit garage. This tree may not survive ti'l next spring but then again it might ust make it. Next time I won't be as quick with the saw...To be continued...

Jorge

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Dale Cochoy

I'd follow Johns advice ( although I don't think the standing in water during the growing season 2 years really helps? Why only two years if it does??) but the MOIST soil is a best recommendation, as with ANY bonsai, moist is a key word.

"These guys could care less about the temperature"

Untrue, it's less concern in Florida but definitely is elsewhere. Root zone protection in a pot is a necessity here.

"Hi Dale, I respect your experience and knowledge regarding bonsai but I must question your root rot theory. I don't believe that a BC can develop root rot, quite simply they grow in water and swamps. I know this because I work in water filled swamps full of huge, old BC. Maybe in a potted environment this would not be an ideal set up but to say they will develop root rot seems a little far fetched to me. Mine are in nursery pots with top soil and I keep them soaked as much as possible. They are in wet and thick mucky soil and they do just fine. I may be wrong but I believe the opposite, they "tolerate" soil but love muck and water"
"

THAT is foolish advice to follow for potential BC growers. OK, Sauce you live in Florida, everyone has seen BC in water in Florida, but their range of growth is far greater and they don't need to stand in water to do it. You are WRONG about not getting root rot. I've not seen any bonsai species I can think of that can't get root rot! As I said, they grow there befause they tolerate it. You also see lots of Acer Rubrum there?
"Maybe in a potted environment this would not be an ideal set up"..... OK, stop right there....this is what we are talking about, a potted environment!

" They are in wet and thick mucky soil and they do just fine"...well, I'd say they are growing. I continually bring back trees from Florida in wet, mucky soil. If I leave them there they develope root rot and never thrive, but when I repot them immediately into my bonsai soil I can practically stand back and watch buds shoot out! I'll repot something that's been established in such soil for several years and the roots are a mess, but after a season in good soil they are filling a pot. I see this with EVERY tree type I bring back from Florida.

"I may be wrong but I believe the opposite, they "tolerate" soil but love muck and water."

Yes, you ae wrong.
ESPECIALLY, when we are talking about soaking a containerized tree with fresh chopped roots in water over the winter....which...is what we were talking about.


"I've heard different opinions about the best environment for BC in prior discussions. I would asume that the possibility of root rot during dormancy makes sense but I don't think anybody would argue about the fact BC likes to live in moist soil. "

MOIST soil is NOT a pot sitting in a tub of water, that's not moist. Lets be clear here. Soppy wet muck is not "Moist"

I'm not planning on taking it out of the nursery pot nor do any root work for now. We rarely have frosts during the winter in this area.

That is a plus in your favor. No frost....how nice

I'm not going to argue about this any longer, but I will recommend a book that will dispell many urban legends regarding BC. It's a book about BC, not a bonsai book, by two guys who researched them many years:

Bald Cypress, The tree unique, the wood eternal
by Clair Brown and Glen Montz
Claitors publishing co.
Baton Rouge, La
3165 S. Arcadia st. at I-10
PO box 3333
Baton Rouge, La. 70821

ISBN 0-87511-780-5

I sell these at every show and last I ordered them they had quite a few left in stock.

Regards,
Dale

__________________
________________________________
If you want to be Different....
You have to DO something Different!
__________________________________________

Some people NEVER take the time to do a job right the first time....
but, they always seem to make the time to do it over again...
____________________________________________
Dale Cochoy
Wild Things Bonsai Studio
Yakimono no Kokoro Bonsai Pottery
Hartville, Ohio

bwaynef

Check the BC page at evergreengardenworks. The environment conditions for which a BC is suited vary from near desert to near submerged. These trees just grow well. I think they even grow well pretty far north (no quotes on that one though, do your own research.)

I did, however, find an academic (as I recall) research paper that concluded that BC grows faster when subjected to near-drought conditions than when swamped. I have no clue where I found it, but I've never really had anyone say they'd like to see it either.

I'd be a bit hesitant to submerge mine, but I wouldn't let it get bone-dry anytime right after collection either. Good luck with it.

Wayne F

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© 2004 - present bwaynef

Vonsgardens

I keep mine in water the first two summers to be sure that I have given all of those little roots starts plenty of opportunity to succeed- to not dry out (remember- we get daily winds, things dry out fast here...). I am not worried about top growth then, just getting growth to balance the roots. I have also gotten around this by planting trees into really big plastic nursery containers (30-40 gallon- Ok these are big trees), with the top roots a foot or so down in the potting mix and then watering everyday still.

I am with Dale and many others on this- standing water year round is not the best strategy for containerized cypress. I keep a few growing in containers in the bog of my Wife's fish pond- but that is to give them "knees" (it works), but their growth rate is much slower than those just put into gallons.

The farthest North that I have seen BC "naturally?" is Chicago. But I understand that there may be some a little farther north on the shores of Lake Michigan.

John

Dale Cochoy

Wayne,
You sound like a god candidate for buying the book. You would be suprised by what it says about water, no water, lifetimes in water , depth of water, size increase, and water depth changes throughout the season, etc, etc. Lots of actual research.
It shows a fantastic range for BC but Pond Cypress drops off pretty fast once out of the south. Many great old pics and research.
BTW, this book was way out of print ( 1986) , the publisher just had a bunch left. I bought quite a few after reading it when given to me as a gift by Gary Marchal. I thought I would make them available to folks at shows.
Regards,
Dale

__________________
________________________________
If you want to be Different....
You have to DO something Different!
__________________________________________

Some people NEVER take the time to do a job right the first time....
but, they always seem to make the time to do it over again...
____________________________________________
Dale Cochoy
Wild Things Bonsai Studio
Yakimono no Kokoro Bonsai Pottery
Hartville, Ohio

bwaynef

I had no idea you felt that way Dale, but thank you. I'm blushing.

Seriously, I'd be more interested if I weren't moving. (Landscape BC got me interested.) I did see a BC at a nursery that had ~4" nebari and huge taper for about $20-25 a month or so ago. We'll see how the move goes, but I'll keep this in mind.

WF

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© 2004 - present bwaynef

sauce

I was replying to a person in Zone 9, Texas not Ohio. And I was referring to the onset of dormancy not roots. I don't believe I said they "need to stand in water" I was specifically talking of my experiences with my trees which was obvious, this past spring I could "practically stand back and watch buds shoot out" on my trees as well. Simply because my experience doesn't match yours does not make me wrong nor does it make you right, we are in totally different environments. BC here do not grow 'naturally' anywhere but in swamps period. That is exactly why I made the statement, I don't understand your problem with that statement, maybe I worded it wrong? I never advocated nor recommended this. Maybe I wasn't clear enough but I was referring to nature in Fl. I don't have my own BC standing in water. And as I said before I was replying to Zone 9 where winter is usually not a factor anyway. If this thread had originated in Ohio I would not have replied to it. I admit my reply should have been more concise. It was based on my experiences here in Fl. and the 'only' naturally, (not transplanted) growing BC in my area are in swamps. I fully realize that they grow in large parts of the country, I've even read of them growing in Wisconsin. I am very well aware of the fact that they do not have to be grown in swamps but that is their natural habitat here and usually trees do the best growing in their natural environment do they not. I should have been more clear regarding my intent and meaning in this post but I believe you somewhat twisted and contorted some of my statements here for whatever reason. I am a novice at bonsai but I have been growing trees and plants here for 30+ yrs. I don't have a degree in horticulture but I do have a little experience. You said you are not going to argue any longer but there never was an argument so what does that mean? Your word is the final word? I certainly don't want to start an argument but I will not standby and watch you twist my words around to suit whatever agenda you have. I am sure it doesn't matter but I lost what respect I had for you today. Good day Sir

sauce

Jorge, I am sorry for disrupting your thread. To clarify things my observations and opinions were related to the climate here which is Zone 9. You live in the same zone so I thought my experiences would work for you as well. If I am wrong I apologize. Good Luck with your tree! And don't let it 'stand in water'.