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16-Dec-2004
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#1 |
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Bonsai Doer
 
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Artistry vs. Drama "connection"?
Just for fun I thought it might be fun to remove some dramatic elements from a few bonsai. There are some on the forum that may recognize these trees.
Just what is the difference between Drama and Artistry? I think a dramatic element within the bonsai changes the story. In the case of all of these trees it is a deadwood feature. Probably the most dramatic element one can add to the bonsai composition. In these three trees I have edited out the deadwood and shown the original photo. While the trees with the deadwood are more dramatic, are they also more artistic. Could they be artistic without the deadwood? Is there a difference? Could it be said that a tree needs a dramatic element to make it more artistic? Could this not be achieved with a dramatically placed stone or figure (ie: Nick Lenz) Can a cookie cutter tree be Artistic? I guess sometimes we just have to settle for good craft... Remarks? Bonsai-al
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A tree a day...thats all we ask. Last edited by bonsaial1 : 16-Dec-2004 at 02:26 AM. |
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Artistry vs. Drama "connection"? |
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16-Dec-2004
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#2 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Chief
 
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Al,
Good show... I think by removing the dramatic elements to these bonsai they are not artistic. The fact that the deadwood on these trees make the viewer envision a story of harsh living, and an undying will to survive makes the entire composition work. Without at least some drama they are just bland. Of course this would not hold true for a tree such as a maple that has been styled to appear that it has spent it's life in a nice lush meadow. But then again I guess it could be said that the drama there is that the tree has had a perfect life under perfect conditions, with no struggle to survive. Maybe that in itself brings out drama in the viewer who may envy the "easy life". So I guess it could be said that weather the tree has dramatic elements, or it simply has the right elements to invoke dramatic feelings of the viewer, weather they make the viewer feel sorrow, or cheerful bliss it is getting the job done. You know.... every once in a while a post comes along that really makes me stop and think, now a days I don't seem to have as much time as I used to have to post and reply here. I did have some extra time this morning and this post really made me stop and think. By putting my thoughts into words it was almost like having a small Epiphany. It may not seem like much to others, or just a normal thread, but for whatever the reason this one got through this thick skull of mine. I sincerely thank you Al! Adam |
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16-Dec-2004
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#3 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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Drama in art and bonsai isn't only about eye candy like deadwood. In examples "C" and "E", drama has not been completely removed. Both of these examples still consist of dramatic and exaggerated movement, taper, and appearance of age. Still drama-still art, less eye candy.
Some might disagree with me, but I often see deadwood on a tree as punctuation rather than completion of a tree. There are rare cases where I do not feel this way about a tree. Grampz's contest tree would be an example to the contrary of my point. His inclusion of deadwood, if removed, would cause the artistic composition to fall apart. He very artfully composed the tree so that the deadwood was vital to the design (Grampz, I hope you don't mind me referring to your tree. I admire it very much). http://pictures.bonsaitalk.com/show...&cat=500&page=3 |
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16-Dec-2004
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#4 |
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Please be advised, personal opinions follow....
The bonsai featured in pictures C and D: I feel this bonsai is greatly improved by the removal of the deadwood. The "drama" is still evident in the trees obvious struggle for light, reaching, stretching for it. Adversity against nature, survival in spite of the influences acted upon it. In this example I feel that the dead wood actually distracts from this "feeling." The bonsai featured in pictures E and F: Unfair comparison as the bonsai was obviously styled around the deadwood. Without the deadwood, I am sure the artist would have styled the foliage differently, so by simply erasing the deadwood, the bonsai is shown at a great disadvantage. However, with the dead wood this is a remarkable tree, reminding me greatly of the wild Jack Pines here in Michigan. The drama is evident, the story is told well. The bonsai featured in pictures A and B Again I have to call foul for the same reasons I did above. Simply erasing deadwood and leaving the rest of the bonsai as is without change gives a unfair "vision" as the bonsai was styled around the dead wood and not visa versa. Another excellent post Al, one that made me think about these three bonsai for quite awhile. A couple questions that I would like to throw back at you....is deadwood a fad, is it fleeting, will any of these three bonsai still have the deadwood intact five years from now? Ten? I ask this while keeping in mind that the deadwood is deteroating and will continue to do so even with our best efforts to slow down the process. I guess what I am asking is that...is deadwood on bonsai a quick, temporary decoration? And I'm sure you will agree that drama can come from more than deadwood. Sorry for the focus on deadwood, yet the deadwood was used on all three bonsai as the "drama example." Will Last edited by Will_Heath : 16-Dec-2004 at 12:35 PM. |
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16-Dec-2004
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#5 |
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Behr Appleby
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Execellent thread Al...While I was preparing some alternatives in Photoshop, EarthgirlOK and Will beat me to the punch...This is my take on this subject...If you remove the drama you must also still maintain a good artistic balance in the remainder of the tree...
These are very quick and dirty, but I think it illustrates the point... Regards Behr  |
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16-Dec-2004
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#6 | |
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The Cat's Apprentice
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Quote:
Yeah, what he said. Still, thoughts were provoked. Tanx, Al, you always keep us on our toes. pootsie |
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16-Dec-2004
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#7 |
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bonsaiTALK Expert
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Re-reading Al's original post, I think that the question is less about deadwood or not and more about the relationship between drama and artistry.
As to the main question “Just what is the difference between Drama and Artistry?” it seems like it’s been answered. Drama is a major part if not a crucial part of artistry. In each post we’ve said that in order to make the pieces more artistic w/out the drama of the deadwood, other things would have to be changed; i.e. that the “story” of the tree would have to be changed, and a different drama introduced. It seems to me that Drama (whether it be survival through harsh elements or the serenity of a peaceful glen) along with balance (and there may be a relationship there as well) are the two most important requirements of artistry. For humans to appreciate something it has to tell a story that identifies with the longings of our souls. That’s my 2 cents anyway, ~Justin |
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16-Dec-2004
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#8 | |
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Attila Soos
 Join Date: Jan-2002
Location: Los Angeles, California
Country: USA
Posts: 1,980
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Quote:
So, drama is the easiest, more effective way. It has the highest impact. (Have you noticed that the Hollywood action movies are getting louder and more visually stunning every year, to the point where they are trying to nail you to your seat an leave you dizzy?) However, there are more suble ways to artistry, not necessarily involving drama. Apreciating this recquires a more refined taste and artistic sensitivity. * A perfect formal broom style zelkova is all about balance, good proportions, and refinement. No need for drama. * A tranquil, quiet landscape, inviting you to meditate or rest, needs no drama either. Drama would be a distraction. Drama implies visual and emotional tension, action. Concepts such as tranquility, stillness, emptiness, balance, peacefulness, need no drama and yet can be very artistic. They can be expressed through other means of communication. Edit: Here is an example where there is no need for drama: http://www.bonsaimuseum.org/img/jousetsu/020408_2l.jpg Regards, Attila Last edited by Attila : 16-Dec-2004 at 03:05 PM. |
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16-Dec-2004
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#9 |
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Air Assault All The Way.
Join Date: Mar-2004
Location: Huntersville, NC (near Charlotte)
Country: USA
USDA Zone: 7-8
Posts: 1,702
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Okay, my two cents, as pertains to bonsai. Drama is an action or visual stimuli that invokes a mental evaluation of the subject. Artistry is an ABILITY to physically present drama in such a manner that it motivates a viewer to study the bonsai and conclude with the same mind-set as that of the artist. Basically "explaining" the struggles of the tree without spoken word.
I also believe it is a unique human quality to view visual evidence of physical struggle, and the ubiquitous scars it carries, with a sort of admiration. We look deep into our own soul and remember the "battles" we have fought. To see another living thing with these scars, and still alive, gives us hope that we can continue in our life's journey with the same sort of rugged beauty that only comes from surviving personal difficulties. When bonsai does this, it has set a scene of drama for the viewer. When the person who created the bonsai shows this drama successfully, they have proven their artistic worth. John
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John Dixon Si vis pacem parabellum Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are. |
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16-Dec-2004
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#10 | ||
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B.S. Detector
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Quote:
Quote:
To call something "artistic" is not the same as calling it "dramatic", and vice versa. A few years ago my sister decided she was tired of long hair, so she cut it very short. Was that artistic? Of course not, it was just a haircut, but it was definitely dramatic. Conversely, there is plenty of art that is not dramatic. Whistler's Mother jumps to mind, as does any still life ever painted, as does the Mona Lisa, as does - you get the point. Drama is only important to art insofar as you are creating dramatic art. Dramatic art without drama is pointless. But serene art without drama is still serene, and would be virtually ruined by the addition of drama. As far as the trees are concerned, I think the artistry remains with the removal of the "dramatic" deadwood. The most obvious thing that is missing is balance. The premise of the question immediately made people say "oh, something's wrong, that's not artistic anymore. I guess the drama really did matter most of all." What was really missing was balance, and in a critique where a premise had not been set, this would have been seen immediately. Will, pootsie, and Behr got it right. The art is not lost, the balance is. When you restore the balance, you restore the artistry. No, the trees are no longer dramatic examples of trees triumphing over adversity, but that is decidedly not the only kind of tree that can be considered artistic. Attila gives us a perfect example. Anyway, great thread. Keeps us on our toes.
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I wear hip boots for a reason. |
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