Artistic elements articles?

zen

Hey everyone, I was just thinking last night of doing something like Andy Rutledge's E-book,(great,BTW).
Articles on artistic elements and how they relate to bonsai, BUT do them here on the site wher they would be done in the forum as to allow for feedback, and questions.

They would be split into catagories such as "Line and Contour", "Shape and Mass", "Form and Space" ,"Texture" , "Color and Value",and "Time and Motion".

There would most likely be a set of companion articles based on the principles of design, and how they relate to bonsai, they would include such topics as: "Variety and Unity", "Balance", "Contrast", "Rhythm",and "Proportion"

Just a thought let me know what you think, even if it's that you think I'm crazy(although this has been established, quite some time ago), or if you think the idea stinks and I'm just trying to rip off Andy's e-book (which I'm really not, I didn't think about his E-book untill Mindcrime pointed it out to me in chat a few minutes ago).
Jeremy M.C.

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Mindcrime

I think it's great idea! I don't think there's a risk of copying Andys book, since you're aware of it's existance. Besides, what Andy writes is found in many artbooks and is basic information on any decent artschool.

I would love to see more indepth articles of fewer subjects though, and examples of their uses rather than just stating that a certain "tool" exists.

If there's anything I can do to contribute to this great initiative just tell me! I've studied visual art full-time for about 3,5 years (even though it doesn't show in Victrinia Ensor fantastic art-thread. Trees weren't my "major" ).

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bonsaial1

Personaly I think writing is a good tool. I think it is a better tool when accompanied by what you did on a tree to make it artistic. Writing for writings sake is sort of OK but what do you really have in the end. Just a bunch of words.

Write an ebook based on how you took raw stock to an unbelievable tree in whatever years it took, based on your sound principles. Then you will have something to be proud of. Show me how your principles work and how they relate to bonsai in the big picture. That is the element that is always missing. Showing exactly based on experience from an art background, in useing all these art rules in context with a tree.

Drawings just don't so it for me. I come from a construction background and can tell you first hand that an architect can draw it but it can't always be built. I can't tell you how many times I have to call the architect and find out just what it was in his mind that made him think it could be built that way.

Andy has done a fine job of telling us what to do. Hopefully you can show us what to do. Don't reinvent the wheel, it's already been written one way. Do it so much better that everyone will forget that Andy wrote something so rudimentary

Cheers, Al

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zen

Well Al I'm not really trying to "out-do" Andy's work.
As I am still training most of my own trees, I would need use mostly images from the gallery here (with permission of the tree owners of course) to show how certain elements and artistic tools have been used.
I may even use some paintings and/or sculptures by other artists to show some things, with info on how they could be used by the bonsai-ist.
See, great trees use these elements wether or not the bonsai-ist meant to or not, I just plan to bring it to light, to illustrate a point.
This isn't really about ME doing something to be "proud of", it's about learning and growing, which is why I would like to do it here in a forum where people can interact with the information given, and the person(s) giving it.
Hope this clears some things up.

__________________
"Although profoundly "inconsequential," the Zen experience has consequences in the sense that it may be applied in any direction, to any conceivable human activity, and that wherever it is so applied it lends an unmistakable quality to the work."

~ Alan Watts (1915-1973)

http://www.bonsaiswap.com/

mike_p

My "other" vote is based on wondering who decides who is qualified to write these articles. Will they be written in a style and language that all we who have had no art training and education be able to understand and benefit from?
Based on the old saying that "a picture is worth a thousand words", will the text be illustrated in a way that makes it understandable to the artistically uneducated?
I think John Naka has already done this in book form. John was an art student and a bonsai master.


Mike

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zen

Mike, I don't have John's books. I'm sure others don't as well.
And even if one does have the books, one wouldn't be able to have this kind of back and forth with a book.
The fact that the article would be in a forum would allow those who do not understand certain things to simply ask for more specific information on a specific part of the articles.
I plan on getting help in writing these from at least one person so far (Mindcrime), and as far as who decides,...you do,...like I say if something is explained in too much jargon or in such a way that you feel is over your head, or even if you think it might be over other people's heads but you get it, becuase you have some training, one could bring that up to help us clear up tough subjects.

__________________
"Although profoundly "inconsequential," the Zen experience has consequences in the sense that it may be applied in any direction, to any conceivable human activity, and that wherever it is so applied it lends an unmistakable quality to the work."

~ Alan Watts (1915-1973)

http://www.bonsaiswap.com/

bonsaial1

I hope all those that think this is such a wonderful idea do not take me wrong. Like the last thread that I seemed to put a hex on as far as forum members posting trees to have more experienced members look at them, this idea is challenging.

I hope you understand that this small exchange you have had with only a mention of what you wish to do is only a sample of what can go terribly wrong with anything remotely having to do with art and bonsai.



This is exactly what you should be showing. It is the basic work done early on that sets the foundation for the tree in the future. There used to be a guy here, Ripsgreentree, that billed himself as a grower of the worlds best stock. (actually he still does) The problem was he had no artistic bones in his body and has had only meager success with doing the artistic side of bonsai, sure he can create thousands of cuttings from a gallon tree, but can't cut out a bonsai to save his sole. I always told him that to be making stock that an artist would want needs to be grown by an artist from the start. Sure you don't need to be someone that finishes trees, but artists want stock that has had some attention to branch structure and taper, movement and diminishing perspective and visual speed.

These are the things I presume you are doing to your trees. If you aren't why not? If you are show us what "you" did to prepare your stock for the future.



I call this tuesday morning quarterbacking. Even I with no art background can tell you what makes the tree work and what makes the tree not work. The big problem is that we are working with living trees that do not always like to succumb to our chisel so to speak. We do not have the same flexibility that a sculpter or painter may have. If we cut the wrong branch we are doomed from an artistic standpoint and must go back and rethink our whole concept of what we are going to do now to rectify our mistake.

Most of the top people in bonsai today have no formal education in art. The art eggheads ( I mean that respectfully) can all tell us why the tree works, but only after the art is done. There is seldom anyone there during the real work of the tree with a list of all the art rules telling the master he can't do that because it is not written in the book of arts.

We do trees from our heart, and feel the movement with out hands. We sculpt with a feeling the wells from deep within and pay no attention to whats around us. We conjur up an image within our mind and manafest it with wood and foliage, not by a set of rules.

Now I know there will be someone like Zen that comes by tuesday afternoon and will say " see that tree works because it followed all the rules of artistry ".

I will sit back and say, " Ha! silly guy, that was my only choice because the reverse taper did not glare from that angle ". I guess at that point I will be looked at as some sort of art guru

Cheers, Al

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