Appropriate Standards

FredL

I was so impressed with Carl's find on another thread ("The Modern Bonsai") that I went to Amazon.com on the unlikely possibility that they had the book available. No luck, of course, but I did take the opportunity to take a look at a number of trees being offered for sale by Amazon partners. Talk about eye-openers!

E-bay comes in for alot of abuse among us more knowledgeable bonsai enthusiasts, but really, I was surprised to see that the offerings via Amazon are really no better values than what is common on e-bay.

I found myself wondering whether participating on this forum is making me too hard on myself in judging my reults. In a way, it was strangely reassuring to see what the rest of the world regards as a $30 tree, a $300 tree and a $1000 tree. I do know, it has greatly elevated my standards as to what constitutes a reasonable tree or an excellent tree as well as what I think is attainable by myself. Looking at the trees on Amazon makes me think I really ought to lower the bar a little. Not so much for what I'm striving for, but for what I can relax and enjoy!

Fred

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dbz12fan

I didn't know that amazon sold bonsai as well. I will have to look at them. I have found online auctions for trees are way overpriced with many risks. Its good to be on the sellers side, but the buyer is wasting their time.

__________________
"Success demands understanding"-Andy Rutledge

Charles Bevan
Vero Beach, Fl

K.A. Rutledge

This idea that buying on either Amazon or Ebay is a waste of time is simply rubbish. I have been on both sides of the coin and have never been unhappy with the result. The reality is that if you are an idiot, you will likely get idiotic results and if you are an intelligent buyer/seller, you will likely get excellent results. This is true for every facet of human endeavor.

That Ebay gets labeled as a junkyard is silly. The quality found there is exactly the same as is found anywhere else: there is a multitude of junk, a modicum of pretty good and a small amount of excellent. Believing otherwise the fault of that naive individual an not the forum, the auction or the company. Period.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

dbz12fan

The problem with the excellent stuff from ebay is that it is sold for much more than it would be normally in a nursury.

__________________
"Success demands understanding"-Andy Rutledge

Charles Bevan
Vero Beach, Fl

Carl_Bergstrom

Quite the contrary, Andy! Basic economic theory offers quite a strong argument that the top-notch material will not appear on ebay or other auction sites.

The key is information. When you buy a tree on ebay, you have less information about it than when you buy a tree at the local bonsai nursery. In particular, you typically buy based on a few pictures, without the opportunity to carefully inspect the tree in advance.

As a consequence, buyers have a very difficult time telling excellent trees from very good trees when they buy on-line, but less trouble when they buy in person. The result? On-line, relative to in-person, price for excellent trees falls somewhat, because of this uncertainty. Because of this effect, the market for excellent quality trees can actually "collapse": sellers can't sell excellent trees for their in-person market value in the on-line auctions, and so they withdraw these trees from that market. Thus when you log onto ebay, the higher part of the high end is notably absent.

I'm not saying that there are never great trees on ebay - I remember a certain pine from a seller in Texas a few months back that I would just be thrilled to have been able to afford . I'm just saying that in general, the highest-end part of the market absent because of the information asymmetry.

The basic theory behind all this is set out in the 1970 paper that won George Akerlof a nobel prize in economics a couple of years ago: "The Market for Lemons," The Quarterly Journal of Economics. A google search for a few of those keywords will turn up plenty of further explanation.

Best regards,
Carl

__________________
In love with trees

K.A. Rutledge

dbz12fan (??),

You observe:
"The problem with the excellent stuff from ebay is that it is sold for much more than it would be normally in a nursury."

Aside from this being an inaccurate statement, what about this is bad? This idea that you have that it is bad that people decide to pay a certain amount for things they want - when no one is holding a gun to their head - is unfortunate and misguided. If no one wanted to engage in the commerce that is conducted on Ebay or elsewhere - even though you think it is a problem - these venues would not exist. However, these venues do exists and when there is something particularly wrong with them, they will cease to exist.

I believe what you mean to say is that you don't like the fact that there is such a thing as a free marketplace. If you do like the idea and the fact of the free marketplace, you could not say what you are saying. Are you confused or merely intellectually dishonest?

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

K.A. Rutledge

Carl,

...And I remember lots of excellent quality bonsai there. What you are saying is dancing on the tangents around the issue at hand - that people actually want to buy what they buy on Ebay. Else, they'd not spend their money. The fact is that there ARE buyes for Ebay items and the idea that there is something wrong with this is inane.

Finding fault with sellers because other want to pay what the buyer is asking is silly. This is not a problem and saying that it is is also silly. What about this does anyone not understand?

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

dbz12fan

What I am saying is that the bidders on ebay are usually confused on a correct price. When they see a tree worth 20 dollars they pay 100 dollars for it. With excellent material, it is usually never purchased on online marketplaces just because of the outrageous prices they ask. I see much better material for a lesser price at a nursury.

__________________
"Success demands understanding"-Andy Rutledge

Charles Bevan
Vero Beach, Fl

Carl_Bergstrom

Andy,

I've certainly see nothing wrong with people paying whatever they want for trees on ebay. Certainly the market will sort itself out. If people think ebay is a bad deal, they'll stop buying there. And I haven't seen that happen yet!

For the reasons stated, I would expect to be able to do better at my local bonsai nursery, though, especially in the market for high-grade material.

Best wishes,
Carl

__________________
In love with trees