The mystery of watering...

_MaX_

Hi everyone, I'm asking about watering because it's really not clear in my mind!


First thing about watering



2 rules I read everywhere :

(1) A plant in a pot in which the earth is kept wet will see it's roots rot and it will die.

(2) When the surface of the earth is dry, it's time to water, the deeper parts should never get totally dry.

Maybe it's just me, but if you follow rule (2), the roots will rot, and if you follow rule (1) it will probably grow much slower.


I only say "it will probably grow much slower" because until now I almost always let my plants' earth completely dry before I water them and none of them died because of that.
In the other hand, I had a Cycas which I'm pretty sure I killed for not letting dry enough.

Okay, I know there's a whole world between a Cycas, and - for example - an Acer, but I think you may see why I'm afraid to respect rule (2).

A more precise question about this might be : I have a Ficus johnson that I would like to practice the bonsai art with, now I don't know what rule to follow... I don't want to kill it, obviously, and it's a pretty hard to kill specie, but we never know. (BTW, I'll post another thread on it so you can tell me what they (those who sold it to me) and I did wrong! (And possibly what I could do right with it.) So... How to water such a plant in regard of rules (1) and (2) which are quite contradictory?


Second thing about watering

We've (my family and I) been told by bonsai producers to feed them from the bottom, I mean to put the pots in a water container filled to the ¾ of the plant's pot height for 15 minutes.
They say it's the best way so that the earth won't move too much, and so that the roots will head down and not stay on the surface and make a weak support to the trunc. (BTW I think it's the best way to waste fertilizer.)

Now guess what... I read there are bonsai watering-cans and they say to gently spray water on the surface before using it so that the earth won't slip away...

My plants do really like the first method (pots in water), but they also don't argue much with the second.

As for the "First thing", I know the pot in water is not possible for such things as 150 years old big trees in big pots weighting big! And as far as I know, when it rains outside, water comes from the clouds, which aren't obviously under the trees. Now there's also the fact that when you dig about 5 feet (where I live), you come up with a lot of water in the ground.

What to think about all this?


Conclusion

You can't keep the earth wet, but outside trees always have their feet in water.
You should keep the earth wet, but if you do, roots will rot.
You should water from the bottom, but rain comes from above.
You should maybe water from above, but water comes from below( .. also! )?

There clearly is a difference between outside trees and bonsais I guess... (yes, I know there are bonsais outside, but you know what I mean)

Could you please explain these things to me? I'd really appreciate.

Thanks!

Maxime

__________________
"Eternal companions!
The human being appeared
because the tree was already there;
it will disappear when the tree will no longer be."
-Edgar Cayce

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tachigi

Hi Max,
1st thing off .... what exactly do you mean by earth? Dirt, garden soil, potting soil, bonsai soil off some sort? This is a key component when your talking about watering and the evils that go along with it.

A free draining soil be it organic or inorganic should not pose a problem with watering unless you stand there with your watering can and give it a deluge of water continuously. The best way to check to see if your tree needs water is to stick your finger in to about an inch. If it feels dry then its time to water, if it doesn't leave it be. A wooden chop stick left in the soil as a moisture gauge works well to. Pull it out, if it appears moist, then your good. If not, then you water.

You will not move the soil if you water gently. Be it with a can or a spray nozzle that produces a fine shower. If you water like most in the ground plants are watered, you surely will blow most the soil from its pot.

Bonsai soil components have a maximum saturation point. Be it turface, lava, akadama, pine bark or whatever. There is a point in time when these components will not sponge up anymore water. This is why a free draining soil is so important. The excess runs out the bottom. If it is not free draining the water will pool and sit there. Leading to rot root and other assorted nasty things.

As far as fertilizing from the bottom up .... never heard of that one down my way. The reasons they give don't make much sense when it comes to bonsai culture. In most cases you want your roots to spread out and not down. This will aid in a better nebari structure. You are also not fertilizing the top 1/4 of the roots by this method. Finally this type of feeding limits you to a water soluble fertilizer and you are missing the benefits of a slow release type of feed.

I would suggest you search this site for threads on bonsai soil and pot culture. The methods you describe really don't lend themselves to what you want to do.

__________________
Tom

Shady Side Bonsai
Bonsai Vault
4MAAT

_MaX_

Thank you very much, Tom. Had the soil type totally out of my mind. At the moment, I have some bags of "bonsai soil mix" that were bought at the bonsai nursery I visited last year. I don't think draining is a problem with them, though I have no idea of its composition. I think there are "receipes" for different kind of plants... Until now I've bought plant mixes sold about anywhere and obviously came across mixes I could almost qualify as hydrophobic.

So if I understand well, the problem is more about standing water, than keeping it too wet, right? (I won't leave the plants in water anyway! ) And it makes sense since plants outside would never get their roots dry if they're not growing in a desert.

Now what about pots with no hole in the bottom? I guess they're only for appearance and the plant inside must be in another pot more suited for water draining, right?

Thanks

Max

__________________
"Eternal companions!
The human being appeared
because the tree was already there;
it will disappear when the tree will no longer be."
-Edgar Cayce

Graydon

Go here and read the articles on soil. Brent has done an excellent job explaining the answers to all of your questions.

While you are there read some of the other articles - those that interest you now. Bookmark it and go back later and read more articles as needed. There is a ton of info there.

Best of luck and welcome to bonsaiTalk!

__________________

_MaX_

Thank you Graydon, I will certainly read these articles!

Max

__________________
"Eternal companions!
The human being appeared
because the tree was already there;
it will disappear when the tree will no longer be."
-Edgar Cayce

_MaX_

Here is exactly the reason I needed to stop that "from the bottom" watering thing!

"Watering improperly is probably the most common problem for beginners. Plants must be watered thoroughly when they become slightly dry. Watering should be done from the top, not by submerging the plant, and they should be watered until they are saturated. You will see water pour from the drain holes when they receive enough. This method of watering helps to prevent salt buildup in the soil."
- Brent Walston (http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/bonsaip.htm)



Max

__________________
"Eternal companions!
The human being appeared
because the tree was already there;
it will disappear when the tree will no longer be."
-Edgar Cayce

Graydon

You are welcome - but thank Brent too as he is the one that has taken the time to compile all of that info.

__________________

_MaX_

Good idea, just did!

__________________
"Eternal companions!
The human being appeared
because the tree was already there;
it will disappear when the tree will no longer be."
-Edgar Cayce

watzone69

Hello Maxime,

I have only been into bonsai for a year but in that year I have learned alot. At the beginning I had many of the same questions that you have, plus quite a few more. I have read books, browsed many bonsai website forums, watched videos, joined clubs, attended shows, workshops, and demonstrations galore! Much of it was very intimidating and mysterious at first and many of the questions I asked got conflicting answers. The reason being is that many different people have their own different methods of growing, caring for, and styling bonsai. The heated debates on which of these methods is the "correct" one are endless! Just spend an afternoon reading the many posts on this site and you'll see what I mean.

My point is that there really is no big mystery here. Much of it is common sense, just interpreted in different ways. Watering is no exception.

If I may humbly offer my advice, read Brent's articles on his website. Read the articles and posts on this (and other) bonsai websites. Read every book and magazine you can. Keep reading and re-reading! Look at pictures too. Join a club if one is near your town. Talk to old-timers and newbies and ask questions no matter how foolish you think they may be, they are not! Be patient with this learning process AND with your trees.

Here's what I do, take it for what it's worth...

I water from above. Most times I use one of these:

http://backyardgardener.com/gp/Vend..._inch_Mist.html

With a light touch on the trigger it won't blast the soil out of the pot. I water ONLY the soil until I see water coming out the drainage hole at the bottom of the pot. Ther must ALWAYS be at least on drainage hole! I use those fancy pots with no holes in them as pencil holders.

Other times I use one of these:

http://www.rakuten.co.jp/seikouen/733379/775274/

I water the leaves, trunk and soil until water is coming out the bottom.

I water in the morning before work and and check them again when I get home. Summers get hot here in Texas so sometimes I will run home at lunch and do a quick inspection.

When I think it's time to water again, I'll stick my finger into the dirt up to my first knuckle. If it's still moist I don't water THAT tree. If it's pretty dry and crumbly, it's time to water THAT tree. I do this for each tree, when I can.

Lately I have gotten used to lifting the pot and knowing how heavy the tree is when it has enough water and how light it is when it needs a bit. This comes with practice.

Different species need different amounts of water in the pot at different times of the year. Confusing? YEP! Once again...reading is our friend. All my trees are outside, some in full sun and some in partial shade so I have to factor in that variable as well.

Does all of the above sound preachy? I hope not because I am new to bonsai also and continuously trying to learn. Plus, I hate soapboxes and the people who inhabit them.

Good luck and keep reading!

Mike