Black Pine Sacrafice Branch

yenling

Few newbie questions about JBP:

1. Does letting a low sacrafice branch grow out near the bottom of the trunk, leave a large lump on the trunk, where the sacrafice branch was? Or does the girth of the lower trunk expanded evenly? Is this a good technique for improving taper?

2. Assuming you have a field grown JBP around 1 1/2 inches in girth and it has been trunk chopped. Over the years is there a good way to increase the girth of the trunk significantly? I realize it would be much better not to trunk chop, but can you let all the branches grow out or something like this?


Thanks for helping out a begginner!

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Graydon

Good questions for a beginner. Here is my take.

1. The sacrifice branch could leave a lump but will indeed help gain girth. I believe the additional girth outweighs and visual issues at the union of the branch and trunk. Remember that this gain will not happen in one season. You really need to allow unrestricted growth on the branch. It needs to gain dominance in order to be really effective. As you may know that is not easily done on pines as it may be on azaleas and maples. Once it gets going you can begin to consider how to remove. Can the stub of the branch become a feature? Is it in an area that is seen from the front? I now consider leaving stubs and plan on carving them to become features unless the area is hidden from view.

2. Yes - a sacrifice branch (just like you thought). The challenge will be to maintain final branches while allowing the sacrifice to do what you want it to do (see above). A trunk chop of some sorts is almost always the way to work a pine. If planned properly (and I have no firm idea on how that goes) one can continue to replace leaders with branches to induce movement in the trunk while working in shorter internodes.

Hope this helps.

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yenling

Very interesting, great response thank you so much!

so realistically, let's look at this pine. I believe the trunk is around 1 1/2 inches thick. Because it has been chopped is there anyway of keeping the shape and having nice branches, but significantly increasing the trunk girth to, let's say 2 1/2 inches?

Attached Images

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wicksy

thats a nice tree you have you need to remember that black pines are extremely slow growing and if you want a bigger trunk you would need to put it in the ground for quite a few years. That is the only way it will increase trunk girth which means leave it to grow un checked. But maybe you should work with what you have it seems to have good foliage. Read up on black pine there is some good ground rules like you can cut needles in early autumn and early spring this gives increased new needles, needles only last three years then they go brown and drop. Keep check on the candles as they grow pinch back hard if no increase in that area is wanted or leave till summer if you do. You have to work hard on them to get small needles and dense growth, lots of people will starve them of water in order to make the needles smaller works well but is dangerous.Plus dont neglect pruning in late winter early spring. Rootpruning is another complex issue, only the tip of the root takes up the nutrients and water. The white fungas in the soil is impotant to it to so put some back in the mix only keep damp till new roots grow as they rot easily,so if it was mine i would work it as is,hope this helps to...

CScott

Is the pine from Muranaka's nursery in Nipomo? I was just there and bought one that looks similar. My plan is to to plant it in the ground and grow it out like he does. One central leader taking off with out branching and the lower branches kept tight in toward the trunk. Mine has a bar branch at the base which I will leave for about two years before cutting off. They are nice trees, but I had something larger in mind.

Carmen

yenling

Yup I purchased one similar to the one pictured above although I think mine's even better not bias or anything, haven't taken pics of it yet. Very nice nursery, i'm so lucky to live just 10 minutes away.

It's currently in a 3 or 4 gallon nursery can, growing on a tile. Luckily I'm going to get some help from George, with purning the candels. It's really nice to learn from them esp because they have dad so much experience and live in the same area so time-ing is the same. But, I am trying to learn as much as possible by myself so I don't bug them too much.

I believe I will put it in the ground next season and let a leader grow out while trying to keep the branches tight like you will do.

Thanks for the replys!

bonsaikc

Wicksy,
I don't know how long you have been growing Japanese black pines, but in my opinion, most of what you have written is incorrect.

In my experience, the only thing that makes a JBP grow slowly is poor technique. In the ground they are vigorous growers and massive trunks can be had in a relatively short time span. That being said, those massive trunks have been falling out of favor because the large scars from sacrifice branches never really bark up like they should and are noticeable for decades.
Even in pots, if they are worked correctly, you can see candles that grow extremely long before midsummer candle work. They grow fast.

Foliage is the last of your concerns with a Japanese black pine. I agree if your tree looks like this one, it looks like a very nice tree. It has been grown for years to come to this stage. However, if you put this tree in the ground for several years, you will not see the growth you want. Why is that? If you let the leader grow unchecked, the entire trunk will grow with it and you will lose any taper in the trunk. The only way to get it and good movement back is a succession of trunk chops. Unless you have worked for years to learn to do this, you have a great likelihood of ruining this tree in a few short years.

I agree that you should work with what you have, but not because of the foliage. It's because of the great nebari and miki (trunk), and because an obviously expert grower has already done years of work on this tree. Why waste it? If you want a tree with a trunk an inch thicker, buy one with a trunk an inch thicker.

Cutting needles has no effect on the number of needles. Some cut old needles to preserve the latent bud between each pair, other pluck old needes. I subscribe to the latter camp. But you can't do it willy-nilly based on one sentence fragment, yes, you should read, but you should read the right stuff. There's a lot of confusion about needle plucking and energy management with Japanese black pines, and it has been added to through the years by most of the books and articles out there. Get the Muranakas to help you. In fact, I would suggest you pay them to take some classes.

This is generally true of pines. But if you are leaving your needles on for three years, your tree will get weak and all the growth will occur at the tips. Another technique to be learned from an expert.

This is the confusion of which I spoke. Follow a regime like this at your tree's peril. Learn how pines grow, and how proper technique provides back budding and new vigor.

I only prune candles in June (or the first of July for a small tree that needs smaller needles). Combined with proper needle pulling, this will give you two years' ramification in one year and develop your tree more quickly. But it's technique, technique, technique.

Yenling, I suggest you do some reading at evergreengardenworks.com,
Brent's Blog, my blog, and my articles.

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Chris Johnston
Sashi-no-eda.blogspot.com

Kansas City Area Workshops 2008

Vonsgardens

Yenling,
Chris gives sage advice. I had written a long expose on this thread this morning, but my computer restarted and it was lost.

Don't read the books on how to grow black pines- learn from someone who knows. George M, Frank K over at Sonlight Nursery (OKBonsai), Boon, etc. The old japanese rapid growth techniques are falling out of favor because the bark gets out of scale and the wounds, as Chris states above, take decades to fix.

Healthy JBP grow like weeds and have to be managed. Hope this helps.

John

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"Wiring is simple; However, it is not easy to do it right" Boon

yenling

Thank you guys very much for the great info! George told me to come back in June to work on the candles. I have offered to pay him for some type of lessons before. I would be willing to pay ALOT for lessons!!! But he has always refused money and told me he would help me with my trees.

I realize for a newbie knowledge is more valueable then anything else, and I know I learn 50times the amount of information compared to reading about something, when someone is teaching me first hand.

Hmmmm... think I just realized I really need to figure out someway of getting lessons first hand. Maybe I can ask George to show me something, then throw cash at him and walk away so he can't refuse.