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25-Oct-2002
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#1 |
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bonsaiTALK Journeyman
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Dormancy Questions
I realize this question flys in the face of what "should" be done but being new to this hobby I have to ask.
As well as being in minnesota! Seeing that Bonsai is practiced globaly and some of you are in more temparate climates, wouldnt it be reasonable to assume that if one had the proper setup such as pdbonsai with his indoor atrium of sorts, you could "break" dormancy early for some trees? I realize this wouldnt work for all types of trees. If you live in Texas - dormancy would be a short time relative to MN. How long does a tree need to be dormant to get appropriate rest? Also I know that some people take their trees in early in spring to avoid the freeze - thaw cycles we get here, but how early can you go. The only drawback I can see is proper lighting and the trees will be indoors for a term. Sorry for the run on sentances but Im just flowing thoughts |
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Dormancy Questions |
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25-Oct-2002
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#2 |
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YOU CAN NOT RUSH TIME
 
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Hi MN, I live in a cold climate, agreed not Minnesota, but it does get down to zero and below (F) now and then. You are correct in saying that trees can come out of dormancy earlier than the norm for the area. The question is why? Yes it will allow for a greater growing (length) season, but it is not easy to do. Different trees require different lengths of dormancy (I !think most like 8 -12 weeks). Also, different tree types require different minimum temps(usually all below 39F), that said..... It is not just a light issue for starting to bring your trees out of dormancy. The 'type' of light and the amount is also important. The temp is an issue and most importantly the humidity is an issue, plus with too much humidity mold is an issue. Most of our homes are way to dry, even with a humidifier to have some trees inside. I guess you could start them inside a few weeks early, but how many weeks is a good question. Remember, if you could do this...you could raise the tree inside full time. That of course is something we know is not possible!
I am interested in the groups feeling on this issue. At the moment I live in Zone 5b (ish) and will probable be moving to Vermont in the next 6-8 months. So, I will be going to a colder climate and probably will have to do somethings different...say a greenhouse!
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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49... Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing |
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25-Oct-2002
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#3 |
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bonsaiTALK Journeyman
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Im suprised that you cannot raise trees indoors somehow. I know I am newer to Bonsai and I know you cannot. I do understand the issues light, temp,humid,air -etc.
Its just hard to believe that no one has been successful. You can somewhat liken trees to live coral or invertabrates. They "feed" from light as well. This is successful - something I have done as well as many others even as far as propagation. Light is the single most important thing just as the surrounding environment - water quality, calcium treatments, ozone, you name it - its out there. Air quality can be adjusted in the home or in one area. Light can be closely mimiced to almost a full spectrum ( not truely). Fans for movement etc. There has to be something else that causes unsuccessful attempts that I am not understanding. Coral "lives" outdoors naturally so what am I missing here. Some coral produce food from photosynthisys just as a tree would. Keep in mind that Coral and Invertabrate care is relatively new, 30 years or so. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel, I am just trying to understand what is missing that would not allow this. Again - I understand this is not possible successfully. |
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25-Oct-2002
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#4 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Chief
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Thoughts on dormancy
Two years ago I attended a fruit tasting hear in the valley. There was a question and answer time and the discussion turned to how much dormancy or cold days did diffrent trees require to be healthy and produce good fruit. Now mind you that we were discussing back yard fruit trees. The general concenses was that fruit trees especially apples needed at least 4 weeks of cold tempratures to be healthy and produce fruit. The speaker threw us a curve by stating that he had apples growing and producing fruit in Albuquerque New Mexico and how was this possible in this desert heat and no real dormancy time. The answer was that instead of dormancy the home owner defoliated his trees twice a year by hand forsing the tree into a false dormancy while it produced a new crop of flowers and fruit and then leaves just like normal except he got two crops of fruit a year. This lends one to think that dormancy needs to be rethought and that trees grown indoors may only have to be defoliated to start a new cycle of growth. Someone in colder climates should posibly do some expiraments.
Glenn Van Winkle
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ripsgreentree It requires an open hand to give and to recieve. |
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25-Oct-2002
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#5 |
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bonsaiTALK Journeyman
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Rips,
That is some great information, from books I have read I have always thought that the tree would be "tired" from continuously generating itself. One would surmise that defoliating a tree would exhaust it. Apparantly not. I am thinking about planning to experiment with some smaller plants. Im not one who believes its "mean" to the tree. If those folks would like to watch me cut a live coral with a scissors for propagation ,they are welcome to - now thats mean! If anyone has any experience with dormancy experiments please post! BTW- I am not into purposely killing living things, I dont agree with experiments that lead to destruction of anything. |
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25-Oct-2002
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#6 |
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bonsaiTALK Master
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i know this is off subject, but.....that reminds me of that thing on the news a couple years ago, where the scientist amputated a dogs tail off, and tried to clone the rest of the dog to grow from that tail,i guess that woud be conciered propagation by cutting, because thats what we are doing, we cut a peice of a plant, and try to clone the rest of the plant, to make another suffecient living orinism, except it not mean when we do it
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"A Bonsai! A Bonsai! My kingdom for a Bonsai!" William Shakespeare |
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25-Oct-2002
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#7 |
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YOU CAN NOT RUSH TIME
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MN, Don't forget from where I speak. I am NOT an expert...for sure.
Of what I know nothing is impossible in life... just somethings have not been done yet! As for the growing of non-tropicals indoors, I think it is as much a money issue as anything else. You can build a greenhouse..all glass, and have fans for circulation. You can add special lights to make up for the light spectrum lost through the glass. You can add heaters and humidifiers to the room. You can do alot of things..... what is the $$ for this. In general, I feel it is best to try and grow trees that are native to your area, or at least to grow trees that could grow in your area. I hear you RIP about the apple guy but........ These are trees in the ground, add the additional strain of growing in minimal soil in a pot and the twice year defoliation will become very very tricky! Just my .02 cents
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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49... Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing |
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25-Oct-2002
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#9 |
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bonsaiTALK Adept
 
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There is a superb article on dormancy and bonsai at Evergreen Garden Works. Check out the following:
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormancy.htm Brent Walston says that most deciduous trees require a minimum of 1000 hours of temperature below 40ºF before they will break dormancy. Ed |
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25-Oct-2002
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#10 |
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Paul Berish
Join Date: Jun-2002
Location: north shore of Lake Superior
Country: Minnesota
USDA Zone: 3/4
Posts: 1,197
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da bonsai shuffle
I wrote this long reply earlier today and had a fuse blow out in the middle of it.....I had to leave and now am back to try to remember what I wrote.
It went something like this. With regards to my trees in Noreast Mn, I try to cheat Mother Nature in spring and fall. This years fall kinda fell by the wayside....where did it go? One day it was in the 50's, next day snowed and has been in the 30's since. Ick Poo. I cheat by doing the bonsai shuffle, trees outside when temps get above 40 and in at nite until the temps are steady over 45 at nite. Now Mom Nature has her funny side too. She likes to throw curve balls like late April snowstorms, and freezing temps in June. I think you must pay serious attention to weather patterns, and particularly the freezes. Roots and early bud bursts are especially prone to freezes. And will die easily if left unprotected. For those with small collections, it is a simple feet to do the shuffle. For persons with large collections.....you may want to limit your shuffle to the trees you wish to get lots more work done too. The best way, all around, is to have a set up like Tom's (BonsaiMon's) set up in the Wintering Tropicals setups thread. I guess to a point. you would want to vent the house during the days to keep our cold hardy species from going totally bezerk, maintain the temps locally within the confines of the house, without the shuffle. Nite time temps you may concider some heat, especially if there is new budding taking place. I plan to build a greenhouse this next year. And am looking forward to the project. I cant remember anymore points I wanted to make at this time, so I will sit back until I remember......Take care all Paul
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It is essential to experience all the times and moods of one good place. (Thomas Merton) BonsaiTalk is one good place. (me) |
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