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15-Nov-2005
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#1 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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Pruning Diospyros texana (Texas Persimmon)
I recently aquired a very old collected Texas Persimmon but it is still very rough. They are notoriously slow growing, and untreated scars seem to take decades to heal.
Does anyone out there have experience with pruning and the subsequent wound care for the Texas Persimmon? Thanks in advance, Jim |
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Pruning Diospyros texana (Texas Persimmon) |
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15-Nov-2005
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#2 | |
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Behr Appleby
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Quote:
Mr. Jim, Congratulations on your aquisition...Yes as you say they are slow growing and even more so in pot culture, which is probably why most people take advantage of the beautiful black scars that are common with the species...I have no doubt, if I am ever able to aquire a nice old one I will look for every opportunity to create scars, jins, shari, and any other deadwood possibilities...To my eyes this is the most outstanding characteristic of the Texas Persimmon...The bark is ok, the leaves are so-so, but the black deadwood is memorable...I will be watching this thread with interest because I am on the look out for a nice piece of stock...I do hope you will share a photo of your new tree... Regards Behr PS...I believe that boxwood dig we had discussed earlier is back on for probably January... 
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As the Master departed the workshop, he could have sworn he heard some one saying rather loudly... "I thought he would never leave" San Antonio Bonsai Society, Inc. Last edited by grampz : 15-Nov-2005 at 12:53 AM. |
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15-Nov-2005
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#3 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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I have several. Here's what I know:
They really don't heal well. I've not seen much healing action on mine after about 5 years... Instead, I would incorporate the scars into the design as much as possible. They are a refreshing change from the stark whiteness of normal deadwood features- like burned out areas... I style mostly by clip and grow and tie downs. Their growth pattern takes some getting used to- it's a bit like yaupon. They also seem to be very fussy about transplanting - I think the best time might be when you see a commitment of growth- i.e., bud swell. Don't ever write a tree off simply because they don't bud out. Sometimes it takes a year or more for a freshly collected tree to decide to re-sprout. Try not to thumb nail it to death in the interim! They can be thread and approach grafted. If you are brave, and the tree is healthy, they can be defoliated. Overall one of my favorite trees to work on- delicate flowers, fruit and I love the peeling bark. There's a pic of one of mine somewhere on this forum if you look hard enough... Jim
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Jim Stone Seki Bonsai Studio sekibonsai.com Santa Fe, TX |
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15-Nov-2005
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#4 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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Apparently there were quite a few branches where three came out from the same place. One of the previous owners removed the middle of the three branches, leaving an unsightly scar in the center of the fork! If the owner had chosen either of the outside branches, it would have looked more natural. This was done on most of the mature limbs. Yuck!!!
My thought is to cut back to a new leader on each branch, then work the secondary branching from these newer branches. My only other alternative is to find a way to clean these wounds and get them to heal... but that doesn't sound like it'll be happen'n. How quickly can you develop secondary and tertiary ramification? Also, do they bud back well? Cheers, Jim (And Behr, count me in!) |
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15-Nov-2005
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#5 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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Might you eliminate the pairs down to one? Or the alternative is to develop enough foliage to hide the scars...
Ramification comes only moderately slowly. I try not to prune too late in the season as there seems to be tip die back. They also won't exactly overwhelm you with back-budding. It will happen but not reliably- like I said they will graft ;^) Jim
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Jim Stone Seki Bonsai Studio sekibonsai.com Santa Fe, TX |
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15-Nov-2005
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#6 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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Looks like I was mistaken. One of the previous owners pruned hard (as I would have), and the persimmon sprouted branches from both sides of all the wounds. If that's that case all I will have to do is decide on a branch, and accentuate the scars. The new branches are small so I may be able to wire the tree into shape.
I took photos late last night and will post them here when I get home. Cheers, Jim |
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16-Nov-2005
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#7 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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Photos
The first photo is an overview of the tree. I may change the angle later, but this seems fine for now.
The second and third photos show the dead wood. This is mostly protected by bark, but there will be ample shari to carve/clean later. Lastly, is a photo of the ugly pruning scars. If you drag the dialog box with the photos, you can see them more clearly. Jim, what did you mean exactly by "Their growth pattern takes some getting used to- it's a bit like yaupon"? I never realized that yaupon was tricky. Cheers, Jim |
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16-Nov-2005
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#8 | |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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Quote:
Jim I'll start by saying that while this may sound like 101 Reasons I Hate Yaupon it's not- I think it's a very under-appreciated native that should be used more. One guy I had in the Galveston club, with a few exceptions, worked almost exclusivey worked with yaupons- had like 40 of them - each different... I consider Yaupon tricky because despite the fact that it is basically a "Weed" it takes a relatively exorbitant amount of effort to refine. "Refined" may be referring to something completely different than what you have in mind. At every show in TX that I've been to there's at least one "finished" yaupon. Inevitably it is a "tin helmet". The most popular way to train them is to simply "hedge-prune" them into a dome-like shape or simple lozenge-shaped pads. While this is fine for the uncleansed masses I'm after something with more subtlety. It's growth emerges in a "displaced whorl-like budding pattern" defying training in a more traditional Japanese manner, namely, wire long growth out to where you anticipate needing it. Refine to infinite sub-pads and maintain by pinching/clip and grow. You cannot easily convince these obstinant trees to hold postition- short of wiring to the point of permanent scarring- even then... Not to mention the brittle nature... That nice angular growth that ought to make for interesting limb structure is at the heart of it all. Taking a 10" branch and wiring it over to where you envision your future pad is not a viable option for reasons stated in the previous pargraph. Cutting back to a sprout that will grow in the direction you want to go often involves taking it farther back than really desirable. Inevitably the ideal spot has growth plunging straight down or backward... You might be rolling on quite well when the darn thing might decide to divorce itself of many of the twiglets you've tried so hard to produce. Maybe it's because of jealousy over all that time I spent fussing on my maple... dunno. I've finally resorted to a half-shearing/half-traditional training approach. I stop fussing with them in August so maybe I'll get less die-back. Hmm - then you have the TX persimmon that DOESN'T grow like a weed... with many of the same traits. I guess this explains why Andy mentioned he'd not seen any with the development that my Persimmon has... Or he could've been stroking me... jim
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Jim Stone Seki Bonsai Studio sekibonsai.com Santa Fe, TX |
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