Ron_S

Yeah, this is an old threat. But hopefully, it's not dead because it's great to talk about these things we call God, Art(istry), Design, Form, etc..
I hope that I can bring new fire to the topic, but first let me take a journey back, starting at August 11th 2004 when Al posted his great topic, putting a firm statement like this: Artistic bonsai are those that have all the basic rules of bonsai assembled in an artistic manner.

The discussion started by Eighten who brought in a sharp knife and cutted the cake in 2 parts: this is Art and that is (good) Design. Eighten was not happy with Al’s definition of an artistic bonsai. He tried to define Design by saying “calling design art is like installing a window in the perfect spot on your wall and calling it art”. Very nice methapor here. Further on, he puts Design on a lower ladder of Quality than Art by saying “Design is a craft, a science that every artist should be somehow skilled in”, because implicitly he says that an artist should have this Skill or Science, but it is not enough. Jim came in, agreeing most part of what Eighten said, hence “Artistry is achieved (only) through good design. I think probably only God can achieve artistry in spite of it”. It becomes interesting now, because Jim has just introduced a new concept here, namely God. And he is telling us that we, human, can achieve the artist state only by passing the Design path. There is no choice for us. Only God can pass the Design path without walking through it, and creates something highly in art degree. The very next day, Eighten replied, confirming the strong division between Good Design and Art by by giving us some explanation about what he thought must be the border line that devides these two. He devided the population of Designs into 2 categories: the Good Design, which can be close to Art, and ... now it comes: Art that alternates, modify or bring in some new points of view to the present consolidated state-of-the art. Art is, so to speak, always moving ahead Design, always bringing the Quality of the Products to the next higher ladderstep. Between his lines, we could read that he reffered to Design as: everything we learn with our brain, eyes and hand, through education. Eighten could also take Jim’s God but try to define art with these words: “However, isn't art really just about expressing reality (God's art, right?) to each other?”. Now he talk about the function of Art, which is to “express reality”. Wow, highly abstract, right ? Because from here, one could ask “what is reality ?”, and what does it means: to express reality. That path was luckily kept shut, so it ends to nothing.

Jim replyed at Eighten first category of Good/Best Design by saying that this is almost impossible. It’s impossible for a tree to have a fully 100% score on the Design criteria list or chart. I think we can take this point of view. Actually, Jim asked “what is than a Good Design ?” Something that has 80% scored, 90%, 50% ? Let’s put this aside (another dead path), because Jim had another, much more interesting new concept brought in upon the table: a distinction about at least 2 kind of Arts! One is something that is broadly acceptable (traditional art), and the other is ... unacceptable (to the people who has Authority in defining what art is and what not). We use to call this one contempory. At the end, Eighten brought in more divisions to the ladder of Art! He used words like Good Art and Masterpiece.

IMHO, we have good discussion/communication here, because of the abstract character of these concepts (and words). We have seen several statements which I could shortly list here, from high to low Quality:

Masterpiece = the highest Quality of all
Good Art = the next best Art
Art = Best Design but has a little bit more Quality and/or Innovative to the Traditions.
Good Design = results of good applications of the rules
Poor Design = results of bad applications of the rules
No Design at all = the novice hand with no skills and knowledge at all

Please note that “the little bit more Quality” of Art above Good Design is not yet quite discussed in depth. By the way, one can define Quality as “everything that still could be better” (there are many other possible definitions). But than .... if one puts these words in his/her mouth, he/she must give the explanation of the word better. I believe that there are many people in the history, mainly called Phylosophers, someone like Immanuel Kant, who have given their entire life to answer the question.........