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I don't see or understand why there has to be a battle of wits over this issue. Outside of a string on the nature of bonsai soil, this one on art seems to boil the pot to over flowing. However; Smoke makes an assumption at the begining that is not accurate. He assumes that bonsai is made up of all these rules and sensibilities we all have come to recognize as the traditional Japanes model. When it comes to expressing bonsai I am with him, I prefer the more or less Japanese approach. That's just for me, your point of view is for you, equally valid and we can argue back and forth about it till our hard drives go soft.

Here is the wrench in the works. Bonsai is defined as a tree in a pot (more or less). So technically, a street tree planted in one of those humungous concrete planters on the side of the road is a bonsai, just by the definition of the word.

If someone wants to advance and improve their skill in their perception of bonsai they should ask advise from someone with the same point of view and understanding of the art as theirs. If you think a tree tied in a knot with a tiny scale model tire swing hanging from the branches is bonsai then be the best you can be at this concept of bonsai. Just don't get mad at me if I disagree with you. After all what is good for the goose is good for the gander is it not? If you expect me to accept your concept of bonsai you must also be willing to accept mine, or at least my right to do so.

However the majority of the bonsai comunity has this stylized picture in their collective mind created by those from the Japanese traditional interpretation of bonsai as an art. You can disagree but, unless you are really good at what you are doing to the point that you have a bunch of really passionate deciples doing bonsai your way, you are going to have a tough road changing that point of view. After all, art is not defined by rules, the rules are defined by others' perception of art as performed by the acknowledged masters and put forward as an attempt to analyize the masters' accomplishment. If you don't care for this modle then follow another, but you can't expect others to follow unless what you are doing redefines the rules, not just break them.

2-Jan-2005	#35
Vance Wood bonsaiTALK ArchMaster Join Date: Sep-2002 Location: Roseville Michigan Country: USA USDA Zone: 5/6 AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 2,369	I don't see or understand why there has to be a battle of wits over this issue. Outside of a string on the nature of bonsai soil, this one on art seems to boil the pot to over flowing. However; Smoke makes an assumption at the begining that is not accurate. He assumes that bonsai is made up of all these rules and sensibilities we all have come to recognize as the traditional Japanes model. When it comes to expressing bonsai I am with him, I prefer the more or less Japanese approach. That's just for me, your point of view is for you, equally valid and we can argue back and forth about it till our hard drives go soft. Here is the wrench in the works. Bonsai is defined as a tree in a pot (more or less). So technically, a street tree planted in one of those humungous concrete planters on the side of the road is a bonsai, just by the definition of the word. If someone wants to advance and improve their skill in their perception of bonsai they should ask advise from someone with the same point of view and understanding of the art as theirs. If you think a tree tied in a knot with a tiny scale model tire swing hanging from the branches is bonsai then be the best you can be at this concept of bonsai. Just don't get mad at me if I disagree with you. After all what is good for the goose is good for the gander is it not? If you expect me to accept your concept of bonsai you must also be willing to accept mine, or at least my right to do so. However the majority of the bonsai comunity has this stylized picture in their collective mind created by those from the Japanese traditional interpretation of bonsai as an art. You can disagree but, unless you are really good at what you are doing to the point that you have a bunch of really passionate deciples doing bonsai your way, you are going to have a tough road changing that point of view. After all, art is not defined by rules, the rules are defined by others' perception of art as performed by the acknowledged masters and put forward as an attempt to analyize the masters' accomplishment. If you don't care for this modle then follow another, but you can't expect others to follow unless what you are doing redefines the rules, not just break them.