I enjoyed reading Andy's article. As usual it develops a subject that's been batted around for some time and puts it into a clearer perspective.
As Andy has pointed out, many (most?) of us do not have the motivation or means to pursue formal bonsai study and attempt that 14-story building. To some degree that makes the topic outlined here near-miss at best for part of its audience. Being the operator of an online forum as well as an advocate of bonsai I will, of course, be interested in defending the medium and improving it where I can, but I want you to know I think we can improve it!
Andy's article has been an inspiration to me to consider ways in which we can increase the power of bonsaiTALK to provide more "meaningful" instruction, some of which I'll discuss at the end of this post.
I do want to make some comments about the content of the article. It is a big subject to chew on, but it seems to revolve around the subject of formal vs. informal instruction with a sideline on peer learning, so I'll start with that. The general tone of this post may come off as "We're not as bad as all that, you're exaggerating, but I think we can do better!"
PEER LEARNING
Sure, learning in a peer environment isn't ideal, but it isn't impossible either. In some ways it is potentially better than sitting down with a well-written book and thinking you are learning without bringing any of the knowledge into actual practice. Any form of peer study has similar downfalls. There are study groups for bonsai, and if you are getting bad peer feedback, for example, you might believe you're doing great when the work is actually quite mediocre. Or maybe the guy teaching you to wire simply doesn't know himself.
At a minimum you are exposing your work and getting feedback of some kind, which beats the pants off working in a vacuum. There is also the inspirational element of working within a group that can provide the motivation to get off your duff and do something when you see what others can accomplish in real time, day after day. No videotape or book is going to give you that.
JUST THE FACTS
There are also some "facts" that are presented in broad strokes without much development and other points of discussion that in some cases I found were skewed. I'll provide a few examples:
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?
Since most of us who grow bonsai are not full-time (nor even part-time) students at any sort of a bonsai academy, our bonsai learning opportunities are limited.
As related in the next paragraph, there are a wealth of other opportunities available. Individual study, books, videotapes, magazines, particularly Japanese Magazines, Exhibition catalogs, Study Groups, Club Lessons, workshops, online discussion groups, online magazines and e-books, bonsai schools, and of course the Guild (apprentice/master) relationship.
It would, for example be entirely possible to rewrite Andy's article, substituting "bonsai lessons" for online discussion groups and "Apprenticeship programs" for bonsai lessons and achieve an equally meaningful result. One can always extend the argument of the need for dedicated learning and accreditation to that ultimate conclusion.
For example: "Taking a week's worth of classes every three months with a bonsai professional is a poor substitute for living the lifestyle of the bonsai artist 24 hours a day..."
Not everyone can put his life on hold and study bonsai. Making more of a commitment than the monthly workshop and the trip to the bonsai shop is a reasonable real world compromise.
These venues are not ideal, but they are often readily available and the cost is quite low or nil.
"Are not ideal" is a setup for explanations to come, we hope. The minimal cost aspect, universal geographic accessibility and 24/7 availability of online learning attract many to the Internet. Reading the article, there is an anticipation that an ideal or at least more acceptable solution will be presented.
One wonders: Why are more individuals not unlocking the secrets of traditional, structured learning? Is it because of time, money, laziness, or have they really been deluded by their addiction to the lure and promise of online forums?
hmmm. When those who invest cash and time in workshops come away disgruntled or underwhelmed, how can you convince them to make more of an investment?
That's a tough one.
Based on what I’ve read in online discussion and have heard from my friends at conventions, however, many of us are misjudging the instructional value of these venues. Many of us are mistakenly equating the tips and advice freely offered online and in workshops with real instruction. This is a mistake that can lead to unnecessary disappointment and cause us to level unwarranted criticism at those we believe to be teaching us.
I know what Andy means.
However, this paragraph dismisses the value of online forums with language like "advice" and "freely offered." The fact that the information was provided "freely" is of no consequence to its value, whatsoever. Is Andy's own e-book worth less because it is "freely offered?" I think not. The connotations of freely - "without charge," "informally," "with liberty," I don't know. Maybe there is a better word to use to capture the intent?
Describing this information, whether it be opinion, speculation or fact as "advice" slants the perspective further. It is entirely possible to present meaningful instruction online. We have had numerous examples, case histories, nursery tours, articles, how-to articles, competitions, moderated chats, gallery exhibitions and, yes, even editorials presented here.
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Online forums are great for community building, entertainment, swapping tips and advice, but just plain awful for effective teaching and learning.
We had an interesting contest last week that Al Keppler initiated, which to my knowledge was the first of its kind. It challenged forum members to review pictures of displays that had been presented at a regional convention and offer criticisms of the work. Thereafter the sage comments of a recognized Japanese bonsai master were revealed to all.
Hardly plain.
Months prior we had a styling competition where entrants provided before-and-after photographs of material they had designed. The community chose which they believed were the best examples and a recognized expert selected the winner and runner up and provided some criticism of the work. Two or three of the entrants provided detailed analysis of their styling activities and how they had accomplished the work.
"Advice?" Hardly. "Help?" No. Tips? Un-uh. "Just plain awful?" Hmm.
For those beginners that can't yet discriminate wheat from chaff, we began a process of codifying the information here into separate categories, and further developing it with the Best of bonsaiTALK.
Online chats provided discussion on principles of defoliation, collecting and display. You couldn't help but learn something unless you were asleep. And if you were asleep the chat logs were posted the next day.
We continue to have articles on technique, touching on everything from display methods, repotting, air layering, and tp restyling. Flash animations and CAD drawings gave some assistance in that most troublesome of all bonsai techniques - correctly applying wire. Occasionally someone comes on here with a badly wired tree, using the wrong wire, improper size. Something gets said.
Is it as good as firsthand instruction? Not by far, but I would not dismiss it as tips and advice, and its interactive capacity makes it superior to what can be accomplished in a book or videotape with no feedback at all.
Perhaps the printed book is "just plain awful" and the online discussion forum is "interactively awful?"
A Matter of Degrees
This is the paragraph in which we learn (or are advised
) how bonsai is so marvelously complex that we couldn't achieve basic competence without years of formal study... However, it gets a little weird after that
Bonsai, however, is not the kind of field of endeavor that usually results in a lucrative career. Therefore, it makes less sense to go to the effort and expense of a formal education in order to obtain a high degree of skill and understanding of bonsai art and science. Most of us are just hobbyists and do just fine with tips and advice, thank you very much. We generally have no need for much more.
Accepting this as true, what does it mean in the context of the entire editorial piece? That to many of us the thesis or the practical limitations of the online discussion forum heretofor amplified are irrelevant to most enthusiast readers? It's like the author picked up a bucket of cold water and doused himself or the audience. But why? It comes across to me as a bit condescendingly sarcastic. I don't know how it was intended, but it comes off that way.
To make this persuasive, I'd expect to really sell the thesis itself as significant and relevant to the audience at hand. If the audience perceives it as insignificant or not relevant, it doesn't really matter (to them) if it is accurate or well developed. If the audience perceives that the author is talking down at them for being content "with tips and advice." They will be offended.
IMHO, this is the part, Andy, that led to people "making things up" about what you intended. I don't think it's clear at all what you intend with this paragraph.
Anyway, back to fact checking:
Online discussion forums are the most easily accessed “learning” resources available to most bonsai enthusiasts
Close, but no cigar. Printed books remain the most easily accessed resources. As to the pervasiveness of the Internet, I live here in the heart of Silicon Valley and belong to Midori Bonsai Club, a club of some 100 members. Half are active. About 20 have email addresses (some of those aren't active). Besides myself, only one other member ever posts in the Midori Forum. There is a big population of individuals that are retired, have not and will never touch a computer. There are many who do have computers who haven't considered using them for learning, only the occasional email and whatnot.
Part of what makes an online forum a poor venue for bonsai instruction is the fact that most believe that such forums are meant to provide positive reinforcement only.
I'm sure the development of this thread and many others would give you cause to revisit this statement as "fact!" While we might offer a beginner some encouragement, we aren't about stroking egos here. I challenge you to do this. Take a photo of some cr@ppy mallsai and post it on IBC and post it here under an assumed name. Step back and watch which way the wind blows and whither the sparks fly. My suspicion is that you'll get trampled or ignored on IBC and here someone will give you a virtual, or a pat on the back and the suggestion you join a club, check the faq, get some instruction, or a purchase a book on basic technique.
Students need to know when they’re on the wrong track and they need to know when their efforts stink, and why, in order to learn. In other words, students who put forth a D or F effort need to be graded as such, rather than being given a B+ and encouraged so as not to hurt their feelings. That is a malevolent and irresponsible practice that destroys potential rather than builds it. But, giving an F grade to someone’s effort as exhibited in an online forum is a good way to get yourself criticized and/or ostracized by much of the community there.
There's a gallery of some 1200 trees here. Here begin the ones that are lowest rated so far
http://pictures.bonsaitalk.com/show...5&user=&stype=1
Go ahead and rate some more poorly. No one is going to ostracize you describe why and include some constructive information that will help the artist improve his work or the tree.
... it is unrealistic to expect to be taught in an online forum. Those who try quickly discover their folly.
I understand the intent, but this statement opposes the thesis, which was that "many of us are misjudging the instructional value of [online discussion forums and workshop] venues." They can't simultaneously discover their folly and continue to be deluded, can they?
And the mention of any sort of standard usually invites the ire of most forum participants anyway.
This fact begs example or clarification.
a.
Furthermore, note that in a school or an effective teaching/learning environment that there are teachers and there are students. The distinctions are clear and inviolate.
b.
"Online discussion forums have neither teachers nor students. Everyone is a teacher and everyone is a student.
As you've pointed out, the workshops, which typically have clearly defined teacher pupil relationships, don't work effectively in this regard, whether it is for lack of defined curricula, mistrust or simply not having enough time. Personally I think it is all three.
Consider, is it possible that by participation in a peer group that a hierarchy can develop, based on experience, education or demonstrated skill? I believe so. As an example have benefited from Walter Pall's numerous posts and observations on this forum so much that we created a forum dedicated to his "advice." Walter makes the first reply in resonse to posts in this forum. That distinction is clear and inviolate.
So what can we do? Can these readily available venues be turned into better teaching/learning environments? I’m not so sure that they can be, but I believe that we can work to improve how we use workshops and online media for bonsai instruction. Online means of communication and instruction will continue to evolve and there are as yet unexplored methods online.
I'm not ready to give up. I am just as certain that the online environment continues to improve as a teaching/learning environment. With the introduction of interactive Flash presentations, movies, FAQs and real time discussion, the online environment will soon offer many of the benefits of traditional classroom instruction with important side benefits of accessibility.
Maybe we can make an effort to try a more structured learning approach. Just brainstorming of course, but a dedicated group of individuals and a clear student/teacher relationship. There is no inherent reason why a discussion forum cannot have a leader or different leaders for different activities.
We need to modify our expectations and come to grips with the fact that a few workshops and a few hours of online discussion will not turn us into bonsai adepts.
We also have to come to grips with the fact that those who help us and offer advice in workshops and online forums are not there to “teach” us – they’d be foolish to try. So, we have to not expect them to jump through our hoops.
I believe there are a component of the discussion forums who seriously do wish to teach and an even greater number here who come to learn. Some post articles on work they've accomplished. Others discuss techniques they have used that have succeeded or failed, and ask intelligent questions or hypothesize why. They don't jump through hoops, but they do want to instruct and to inspire or to learn.
Perhaps with the right environment, their efforts can be even more effective. I'm proposing:
1) we begin some formalized workshop activity with student/teacher relationships and see what falls out. We'll try something a little different and rather than have a post with several peer suggestions we'll have some students post trees and agree to do what the instructor says with them.
AND/OR
2) We have some online class in say wiring technique. Where there will be a lecture of sorts, assignments, and grading!
Whatcha think? Any volunteers?