bonsaiTALK Community - View Single Post - Guide To Bonsai Critique

Paul writes:
"Andy,
I only found it helpful, albeit a broad or general overview, I thought it covered it well. I havent seen Ron's or Dave's lists to agree or disagree with you. I looked (not thoroughly due to time) for links online....can you point people in the that direction please? (to Ron's or Mr DeGroots lists)"
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For either of these, you'll have to contact Ron and/or Dave and ask for them. I don't have Ron's handy (I'll have to find it) and I don't have Dave's permission to post his. If I can get these, you can get these. Give it a try.
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"You have mentioned before time and again that there is a dis-service online. How do we go about changing that? This forum is a great place to start. Please do not take this as a challenge or a charge at you. I am trying to learn this as well as the next guy/gal.
Paul"
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Paul, we don't change that. Idiots will ever put their tripe on the internet and they have every freedom to do so. We can't stop that or change that. This particular case of the list of criteria is not necessarily tripe, but it has some bad information in it. It is not a good resource. If you're not sure that it is excellent, why lead others to it?
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"No disrespect, but when YOU seem to disagree with points made, you dont explain why. If you would be so kind, I would like to know what points in that guide are incorrect, and perhaps letting the kind folks at Bonsai4me.com know as well."
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I'm not here to teach. I'm here to discuss and debate. If we all learn in that process -- that's great! What a bonus! This is not a bonsai school and I'm not the teacher and neither is anyone else. This is a discussion forum and it must not be assumed that it is a learning institution. If it is, then this is a bastardized and regrettable way to teach and learn - where every bit of information must be proved to be correct before it is considered and where everyone carries a license to "teach" so no one trusts those who offer information.

Yes, I believe that spoonfeeding information is the worst possible way to help others learn. In may ways it prevents learning. If I "tell" you this and "tell" you that here on a discussion forum (not a bonsai school), these things become issues for debate and it is unlikely that any real learning takes place. Furthermore, I'll be criticized and insulted for my presumption to "tell" anyone anything in the first place. And don't try and say that I'm wrong on this point - history proves my point for me.

The best way, by far, to facilitate learning is to leave people with more questions rather than limited to a couple of answers. I can't "learn" you. You have to do the learning and what passes for "teaching" may or may not impact your learning. This is not a bonsai school, this is a discussion forum. There is no room for debate and second guessing in a teacher/student situation. If you believe there is, you're either a poor student or you're with the wrong teacher. You either trust them or you don't. There is no middle ground.

So, I've got a better idea. How about you take it upon yourself to look into this matter, research things, study and then you tell me what is wrong with that list of criteria on bonsai4me. This way, you learn 10 or 20 times more than if I or anyone else simply gives you an answer (which you'll take as opinion and discard anyway).

And yes, Paul, I do believe you are challenging me. This forum has become rife with challenges for this or that person to prove that they know what they're talking about. This is just how discussion forums work (unlike schools). This happens to me on a regular basis and I've put up with it, demonstrating in each case that I'm not spreading manure. I believe I've made my point, and I'm done. I'm here to debate and discuss (the purpose for discussion forums). I'm not answering any more challenges and I'm not carrying a spoon.

I'm not giving any more reasons for my views or for my information. Many disagree with my opinions (great, lets discuss what you have to counter with!) and many don't appreciate my tone (usually mis-translated anyway) now and then -- but I don't give bad information. I believe I've made that clear by now. If you believe otherwise, you prove me wrong. The onus is on you.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

23-Nov-2003	#5
K.A. Rutledge Guest Posts: n/a	Paul writes: "Andy, I only found it helpful, albeit a broad or general overview, I thought it covered it well. I havent seen Ron's or Dave's lists to agree or disagree with you. I looked (not thoroughly due to time) for links online....can you point people in the that direction please? (to Ron's or Mr DeGroots lists)" -------------- For either of these, you'll have to contact Ron and/or Dave and ask for them. I don't have Ron's handy (I'll have to find it) and I don't have Dave's permission to post his. If I can get these, you can get these. Give it a try. -------------- "You have mentioned before time and again that there is a dis-service online. How do we go about changing that? This forum is a great place to start. Please do not take this as a challenge or a charge at you. I am trying to learn this as well as the next guy/gal. Paul" -------------- Paul, we don't change that. Idiots will ever put their tripe on the internet and they have every freedom to do so. We can't stop that or change that. This particular case of the list of criteria is not necessarily tripe, but it has some bad information in it. It is not a good resource. If you're not sure that it is excellent, why lead others to it? -------------- "No disrespect, but when YOU seem to disagree with points made, you dont explain why. If you would be so kind, I would like to know what points in that guide are incorrect, and perhaps letting the kind folks at Bonsai4me.com know as well." -------------- I'm not here to teach. I'm here to discuss and debate. If we all learn in that process -- that's great! What a bonus! This is not a bonsai school and I'm not the teacher and neither is anyone else. This is a discussion forum and it must not be assumed that it is a learning institution. If it is, then this is a bastardized and regrettable way to teach and learn - where every bit of information must be proved to be correct before it is considered and where everyone carries a license to "teach" so no one trusts those who offer information. Yes, I believe that spoonfeeding information is the worst possible way to help others learn. In may ways it prevents learning. If I "tell" you this and "tell" you that here on a discussion forum (not a bonsai school), these things become issues for debate and it is unlikely that any real learning takes place. Furthermore, I'll be criticized and insulted for my presumption to "tell" anyone anything in the first place. And don't try and say that I'm wrong on this point - history proves my point for me. The best way, by far, to facilitate learning is to leave people with more questions rather than limited to a couple of answers. I can't "learn" you. You have to do the learning and what passes for "teaching" may or may not impact your learning. This is not a bonsai school, this is a discussion forum. There is no room for debate and second guessing in a teacher/student situation. If you believe there is, you're either a poor student or you're with the wrong teacher. You either trust them or you don't. There is no middle ground. So, I've got a better idea. How about you take it upon yourself to look into this matter, research things, study and then you tell me what is wrong with that list of criteria on bonsai4me. This way, you learn 10 or 20 times more than if I or anyone else simply gives you an answer (which you'll take as opinion and discard anyway). And yes, Paul, I do believe you are challenging me. This forum has become rife with challenges for this or that person to prove that they know what they're talking about. This is just how discussion forums work (unlike schools). This happens to me on a regular basis and I've put up with it, demonstrating in each case that I'm not spreading manure. I believe I've made my point, and I'm done. I'm here to debate and discuss (the purpose for discussion forums). I'm not answering any more challenges and I'm not carrying a spoon. I'm not giving any more reasons for my views or for my information. Many disagree with my opinions (great, lets discuss what you have to counter with!) and many don't appreciate my tone (usually mis-translated anyway) now and then -- but I don't give bad information. I believe I've made that clear by now. If you believe otherwise, you prove me wrong. The onus is on you. Kind regards, Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas