Walter_Pall

Fred,

'Awhile back, I saw an article in "Bonsai Today" devoted to a Japanese Black Pine which had been raised from a seed by Masahiko Kimura in Japan. It was twenty some years old and was spectacular. Now I doubt that Mr. K. saw any special qualities in the seed he collected; rather the result reflected what could be accomplished by a man of genius over the course of nearly 3 decades.'

This does not have much to do with what I wrote. I have the feeling somehow that you are giving a sort of reflex answer to what you thinkI have written instead of really reading it.
You are giving a good example that to raise extemely good bonsai from seed is quite possible. But maybe you are not so much aware that this is definitely more difficult than creating very good bonsai from already well developed material for the overwhelming majority of bonsai enthusiasts. I have seen many very good bonsai made from seed. Not as single one was done by amateurs.
But this was not at all my subject anyway.

'Actually, this is only one of many examples I've seen over the years of magnificent trees grown from seed. Quite recently BT had an article on growing JBP from seed that showed wonderful reults achieved in ten to twelve years.'

Then show me how you do this. I can assure you that it is definitely more difficlut than to work with already established material or collected material.

' Many people do not have access to such material, or it is very expesive for them to acquire.'

Not exaclty true. Everyone can go to a normal tree nursery or to old gardens and find excellent material. If he knows what excellent material is. It is also not really a matter of money. But if you just don't have the skill to find good cheap material you better go to a bonsai nursery and buy it there rather than settle with poor material.

' My own opinion is that it is not helpful to discourage them from starting bonsai from what IS easily available to them with the caution that it will take them longer to develop their trees.'

First of all I am not at all discouragin them here. I only make it very clear that it is definitley not a matter of time to create a very good bonsai out of any material. It is not a matter of skill. It is just not possible to create a very good bonsai out of poor materil. By definition. If it were good material it were possible. Even if you insist a hundred times you should have gotten the message by now. So the trick is to know the difference between garbage and good material. This is the whole point.
The trick in bonsai demonstrations and in bonsai articles which show the design of trees very often is to show material that SEEMS to be garbage and then do wonders with it. I am guilty of this. Beleive me, if one can do wonders it is not garbage. I am speaking of the material that actually is garbage and should be discarded. For some reason far too many bonsai enthusiasts just don't get this and you seem to be one of them.


'I am quite sure that if you had only "garbage" (which I take to mean younger material or material with severe defects that will require the tree to be taken back to an earlier stage of development), you would soon be developing trees just as amazing as the ones you do now, but over longer periods of time.'

Fred, you can believe it and repeat it. It is wrong!! This is exactly the message of this thread which you are trying very hard to misunderstand. It is NOT only a question of time or skill.

' have seen my own seedlings develop over the limited time I've had them and I am quite sure that given another 3 to 5 years, I will have many trees that, in your hands, could be developed into very fine specimens. '

May well be but does not prove much other than you are able to develop good material.

'You might raise the question, "But why invest so much time and effort when you could have started with something already adequate for initial styling or with the same qualities you took years to develop?". This is a valid point, which I have addressed elsewhere, but is quite a different issue from that of whether immature trees with little to recommend them can or can not be developed over a few or many years into excellent bonsai.'

Let me tell you again: they usually cannot . If they can it is so painfuol that it should be avoided altogether.

'I have friends with a "garbage dog", of uncertain parentage acquired from the local animal shelter. It is very beautiful and as smart and pleasant a dog to be around as I have ever seen. I suppose, in a Water Pall world, it would have been put to sleep the day it came in. I know it has two delighted owners that are very happy it wasn't.'

Fred, this you have to take back. That's close to an insult.
What I really mean is that people come with what you call 'garbage dog' and actually believe that it is an outstading future prize winning dog and want to hear from me how exaclty to go about this. I tell them that it is a 'garbage dog' and that they should forget it altogether and they think I am very impolite. This is the message of this thread.

best regards
Walter Pall