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A good answer, Al! I think discussions like this are needed if one (such as myself) would actually contribute with something rather than stating the obvious or just repeating something that has been said over and over and over again...(In a sense it seems the work has already begun! Think of this discussion as a prologue!)

"It is the basic work done early on that sets the foundation for the tree in the future."

Of course! However aesthetic considerations are done throughout the trees life on a regular basis. The aestethic principles are the same though, regardless of what state the tree is in.

"with a list of all the art rules"

I doubt that Zen's idea is to bring another set of "rules" to further decrease the amount of aesthetic freedom when it comes to Bonsai. I feel that the aesthetic considerations one can make from a painters point of view isn't even recommendations, rather alternatives of wich none are good per se. The become good or bad choices depending on context. Remember, we are not talking about aesthetic conventions here like the "best" branch structure of an informal upright.

"We do trees from our heart, and feel the movement with out hands. We sculpt with a feeling the wells from deep within and pay no attention to whats around us. We conjur up an image within our mind and manafest it with wood and foliage, not by a set of rules."

And yet most of us do. To even define something as Bonsai is to accept a lot of rules. It's not 180' tall, it's not a herb etc. From an aesthetic point of view we don't make the crown the shape of a perfect square, or exhibit them in colanders. Yet, from a painters point of view one could probably make that work if one disregard that it is a Bonsai.

"Now I know there will be someone like Zen that comes by tuesday afternoon and will say " see that tree works because it followed all the rules of artistry ".

I will sit back and say, " Ha! silly guy, that was my only choice because the reverse taper did not glare from that angle ". "

That doesn't make anyone of you wrong though, it's just two different ways of describing a phenomenon.

6-Feb-2007	#8
Mindcrime Swede Join Date: May-2005 Location: Umea Country: Sweden USDA Zone: 3b AHS Heat Zone: ? Posts: 286	A good answer, Al! I think discussions like this are needed if one (such as myself) would actually contribute with something rather than stating the obvious or just repeating something that has been said over and over and over again...(In a sense it seems the work has already begun! Think of this discussion as a prologue!) "It is the basic work done early on that sets the foundation for the tree in the future." Of course! However aesthetic considerations are done throughout the trees life on a regular basis. The aestethic principles are the same though, regardless of what state the tree is in. "with a list of all the art rules" I doubt that Zen's idea is to bring another set of "rules" to further decrease the amount of aesthetic freedom when it comes to Bonsai. I feel that the aesthetic considerations one can make from a painters point of view isn't even recommendations, rather alternatives of wich none are good per se. The become good or bad choices depending on context. Remember, we are not talking about aesthetic conventions here like the "best" branch structure of an informal upright. "We do trees from our heart, and feel the movement with out hands. We sculpt with a feeling the wells from deep within and pay no attention to whats around us. We conjur up an image within our mind and manafest it with wood and foliage, not by a set of rules." And yet most of us do. To even define something as Bonsai is to accept a lot of rules. It's not 180' tall, it's not a herb etc. From an aesthetic point of view we don't make the crown the shape of a perfect square, or exhibit them in colanders. Yet, from a painters point of view one could probably make that work if one disregard that it is a Bonsai. "Now I know there will be someone like Zen that comes by tuesday afternoon and will say " see that tree works because it followed all the rules of artistry ". I will sit back and say, " Ha! silly guy, that was my only choice because the reverse taper did not glare from that angle ". " That doesn't make anyone of you wrong though, it's just two different ways of describing a phenomenon. __________________ Less is a bore...